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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Three types of Wracks   Sun Mar 01 2015, 00:59

(disclaimer: I'm a beginner and english is my second langage)

Fellow Archons,

I know wracks are not a Dark Eldar staple. But I can't stop thinking there's a way to use these awesome models effectively. By effective I mean in friendly / semi-competitive play, not in tournaments.

I think there is 3 types of wracks: basic wracks, enhanced wracks and epicurean wracks.

### Basic wracks ###
(Wracks from the DE codex)
+ tough by DE standard (T4 and T1 fnp)
+ poison weapons and 3 attacks on charge
+ ossefactor is a nice weapons in a codex with few mid-strengh shooting

- lack shooting in a shooty edition
- not a very effective assault unit: no assault grenades and without fleet, no AP weapons
- don't benefit from all pfp bonus
- two of their weapons (hexrifle and liquifiers) are not impressive

Basic wracks look like a hybrid unit, not an elite one. Their primary role could be to hunt MC and high toughness opponents, but we have tons of poison shooting for that. They can also shoot elite infantry with the ossefactor, or in last resort shoot AV10 vehicles.

### Enhanced wracks ###
)Wracks froms the Coven supplement) In addition to the basic wracks:
+ a slightly better pfp table.
+ freakish spectacle -> better chance to make sweeping advances, synergy with tgl, AoM, AoP, harlequins, eldars
+ while fear is not a game breaking skill, freakish spectacle make it a tad better
+ the scalpel squadron bring a new way to field them
- loss of rage from the pfp table

From the same cost, Coven supplement wracks seems strickly superior to DE codex wracks.

### Epicurean wracks ###
(Wracks from the Scarlet Epicureans formation) In addition to the enhanced wracks:
+ precision strikes to snipe (in assault) a specific model
+ 1 turn bonus on the pfp table. With the haemie you can have zealot on turn 3.

When I look at epicurean wracks, they got a lot of improvements in comparison with basic wracks, at no cost other than the mandatory Cronos. But all these improvements involve assault. What kind of role could they take?

1) I want to try them as a countercharge unit in a shooty army. The ossefactor allow them to shoot in the early turns. I often play against orks, and theses wracks seems perfect to charge these low Ld, low I, high T models. I can see them charging a nob biker unit, commandos, stormboys or koptas. Precision strike allows to remove the painboy in large units (so they lose fnp). I plan to put them in a raider to try the TGL, or with chain snares just for fun.

The cronos make me think that this is the role GW tough for this formation.

2) If played against a shooty army (so no countercharge duty), they are still tough by DE standard and can camp on an objective and, unlike in 6th Ed, shoot at 24" while doing so. With some cover, T4, fearless and pfp, they are maybe not that bad in that role.

3) Last, if played against some MC, they can assault them if poison shooting isnt enough or if the MC is already locked in assault. As some objective cards involve assault, I like to have at least one assault unit in all my lists (I dont play tournaments).

What do you think?
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Sun Mar 01 2015, 03:26

Any and all units can be good in a noncompetitive environment, and alas for me my friendly games are just with my friends there is nothing friendly about them.

wracks aren't an amazing take in our standard codex but they aren't bad, the only issue they possess is that they are an elite slot with no (good) options. you can fix them just by writing troops on them.


Also i read through your post with no problems one day i hope to pickup another language.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Sun Mar 01 2015, 05:57

I used Scarlet Epicureans to make a neat little 500 point army (I stuck one unit of Wracks in a Venom) and had a lot of fun playing a couple games with them last weekend.

My observations: mostly I was surprised by how durable the Wracks next to the Cronos were. Ossefactors are mean, mean guns. They weren't amazing in assaults, but they weren't terrible either. Overall I was happy with them; I'm planning on trying them in a Scalpel Squadron next.

I don't think I'd take Wracks who weren't using the Covens supplement.

The trouble with the Scarlet Epicureans is that it sacrifices our mobility. You're either anchored to the Cronos, foot-slogging across the table, or else you're leaving it behind, in which case it's wasted points.

I might use the Scarlet Epicureans in a larger game if I had a couple Talos (or even a Corpsethief Claw) for the Cronos to hang out with.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Sun Mar 01 2015, 13:43

The reason I always struggle to include the Scarlet Epicurean in my list is the Cronos. It can't really do anything beyond support, but lacks the mobility to keep up with the rest of my army. If I was going down the Wrack route, I'd rather take Covenite Fleshcorps and have an extra unit of Wracks instead.

The other issue I have is that whilst Ossefactors are nice weapons, Wracks have nothing to back them up. Not even basic guns to contribute some extra firepower.

In any case, if you were running SEs, how would you equip the Wracks and Haemonculus? Would you use 2 units of 5, 2 units of 10, one of each? Also, with Precision Strikes, is it worth including Acothysts and upgrading them with special weapons?
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Sun Mar 01 2015, 19:36

@Grimcrimm wrote:
Also i read through your post with no problems one day i hope to pickup another language.

Thank you!

@Calyptra wrote:
I used Scarlet Epicureans to make a neat little 500 point army (I stuck one unit of Wracks in a Venom) and had a lot of fun playing a couple games with them last weekend.

My observations: mostly I was surprised by how durable the Wracks next to the Cronos were. Ossefactors are mean, mean guns. They weren't amazing in assaults, but they weren't terrible either. Overall I was happy with them; I'm planning on trying them in a Scalpel Squadron next.

It's nice to hear you had succes with them outside of the scalpel squadron. I'll try them too as soon as I receive my order.

@The Shredder wrote:
The reason I always struggle to include the Scarlet Epicurean in my list is the Cronos. It can't really do anything beyond support, but lacks the mobility to keep up with the rest of my army.

Well I personnally like to use one "bodyguard" or "counterassault" unit in my shooty lists, so I often include a talos in that role. The cronos is less scary but I guess it can fulfill this role. And then maybe add one or two talos to profit of the improved fnp.

Also, as the cronos isnt shooty it can run every turn.

@The Shredder wrote:
In any case, if you were running SEs, how would you equip the Wracks and Haemonculus? Would you use 2 units of 5, 2 units of 10, one of each? Also, with Precision Strikes, is it worth including Acothysts and upgrading them with special weapons?

Good question. I'm thinking of this kind of hybrid list (DE CAD + SE):

- 5 wracks with ossefactor in a DL raider
- 5 wracks with ossefactor and vb acothyst with a wwp cc archon with Archangel of pain, in a dissie raider with tgl.
- SE haemie in a kabalite warriors gunboat, with sump
- A unit of 2 talos to move with the cronos as a scary centerfield
- complete the list with AT (ravagers, scourges) and a msu venom
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Mon Mar 02 2015, 13:46

@Mononcule wrote:

Well I personnally like to use one "bodyguard" or "counterassault" unit in my shooty lists, so I often include a talos in that role. The cronos is less scary but I guess it can fulfill this role. And then maybe add one or two talos to profit of the improved fnp.

Personally, I still like my bodyguard or counter-assault units to move as fast as the rest of my army.

Also, I'm not sure the Cronos would be much use as a counter-assault unit. Having used one in DA, it rarely does anything even with Zealot, +1WS and +1I. And, most units you'd actually want a counter-assault unit against are pretty damn tough.

Maybe it could act as a tarpit?

@Mononcule wrote:

Also, as the cronos isnt shooty it can run every turn.

True. However, I'm not sure 'it can run because it doesn't do anything else' is a point in its favour. Wink

Actually, I find myself wondering if it would be worth swapping out the Probe for the Siphon - so that it becomes more independent and a decent anti-horde unit.

@Mononcule wrote:

Good question. I'm thinking of this kind of hybrid list (DE CAD + SE):

- 5 wracks with ossefactor in a DL raider
- 5 wracks with ossefactor and vb acothyst with a wwp cc archon with Archangel of pain, in a dissie raider with tgl.
- SE haemie in a kabalite warriors gunboat, with sump
- A unit of 2 talos to move with the cronos as a scary centerfield
- complete the list with AT (ravagers, scourges) and a msu venom

A few points:
- Is the Archon worth it? Surely a succubus would be better for a melee character? Also, he seems a bit over-equipped, what with Archangel of pain and TGL.
- Is WWP necessary? It seems like you could just flat-out the raider to get into position.
- Putting the Haemonculus with a unit of warriors seems like an odd choice. I'd have thought he'd add more to a melee squad (with Fearless and later Zealot), and could give the other Wrack unit Zealot on turn 3.
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:55

Is 5 Wracks with an ossefactor really a melee unit though? I don't think I'd want a Succubus in that unit either. I like it to pick on weaker units, or to go after a specific target, or tarpit small things, but not as a combat character delivery system. I just don't think a wrack unit, especially a regular book one is where to put any characters other than Haemy's in the Coven book Formations, but I could be wrong.

I have struggled to fit wracks into all lists myself, not because I don't think they have merit, but simply because they are kind of a hybrid unit that is a little survival, a little range, a little close combat, and slow (All this depends on gear or transport). So they're kind of all over the place as far as battlefield roles go. I think you really have to focus on one thing for them and drive it as much as possible, which is easier to do with covens.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Mon Mar 02 2015, 17:51

@Lord Mal wrote:
Is 5 Wracks with an ossefactor really a melee unit though?

Not especially. I see them more as shooty units that can engage in melee to finish off depleted units.

@Lord Mal wrote:
I don't think I'd want a Succubus in that unit either.  I like it to pick on weaker units, or to go after a specific target, or tarpit small things, but not as a combat character delivery system.  I just don't think a wrack unit, especially a regular book one is where to put any characters other than Haemy's in the Coven book Formations, but I could be wrong. 

Yeah, if I was going down that route, I'd rather just use Grotesques.

@Lord Mal wrote:

I have struggled to fit wracks into all lists myself, not because I don't think they have merit, but simply because they are kind of a hybrid unit that is a little survival, a little range, a little close combat, and slow (All this depends on gear or transport).  So they're kind of all over the place as far as battlefield roles go.  I think you really have to focus on one thing for them and drive it as much as possible, which is easier to do with covens.  

I'm actually the opposite - I think you need to use both their range and their melee capabilities. Focussing on just one role seems like a bad idea, because Warriors out-shoot them (as well as being Obj-sec), and Grotesques out-fight them (in addition to being tougher). So, if you're only going to focus on one role, you might as well just take a specialised unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Tue Mar 03 2015, 02:46

Well, what I meant by "a specific purpose" was to focus them in a specific role using the Coven formations.  For example, obviously the Scalpel Squad is to jump on weak units early and get first blood, or Flesh Corps if that Haemy with them is the Warlord are extremely tanky for units not named Grotesques.

In some places, you can apparently only have 2 Formations from the Coven, and I know most people take Grotesquerie and possibly DA as those two choices, but I think the next two strongest are probably the two I just mentioned.  I really want to like Scarlet Epicureans, they're my favorite fluff wise, but I wish they could take a WWP to drop in like the DA can.

Also, am I the only one that wonders if when using them in any capacity, at what number we should take them?  Their cost and having Fearless early would point to multiple small units, but trying to throw them into melees really seems like they should be as big as possible.  Then there's having 2 ossifactors at higher unit sizes, but again, maybe you should then just take lots of small units with ossifactors?  Again, tough unit for me personally to figure out what to do with besides the fact I love them and want to include some.
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Tue Mar 03 2015, 07:38

If I were to run wracks, I would run the Scarlet Epicureans, two squads of 10 with a cronos (with probe) and just run them up the table, or camp on objectives.

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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Wed Mar 04 2015, 17:40

I think you are all right, the units I proposed were too small and the Archon was a tax. I prefer the unit size Mushkilla proposed to be better suited for assault. I forgot that 10 wracks can take 2 ossefactors. So to do a mix of the two:

- 10 wracks 2 ossefactors in a raider
- 10 wracks 2 ossefactors in a raider
- Cronos (probe) running in the middle
- Use the coven haemie warlord with a sump in a wwp court raider (medusa and sslyth for T5)
- add ravagers/scourges for AT and 2 msu kw in venoms for 36" AI

This way you save the Archon, and the coven haemie is better used in a court even if the sslyth dont have pfp. If you land near the cronos, 4+ fnp sslyth are quite tough.
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Wed Mar 04 2015, 22:02

Yeah, while I personally like using an Archon with a list that has Sslyth (just because I like them fluff wise as a body guard), they really do combo well with Coven units and formations. Adding more T5 other than Grots is nice, and you get to add more shooting to a Coven heavy army without dropping durability.

In fact, what you just described is quite dangerous as they slog up the field to mid field troops and Elites in terms of shooting. I think Coven heavy armies with shooting will take a lot of opponents by surprise, as when you see coven, you usually think melee.
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 00:06

You forgot the fourth kind.....

Splinter Wracks



I'm just poking fun at the people who spell it wrong. Heh heh heh heh
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 01:29

When it comes to Wracks, I think the Scalpel Squadron is a must-have. I am also partial to running my Epicureans in 5 man, Venom mounted teams (with Ossefactors). I usually just stick the mandatory Haemmy in with a Grotesquerie, or with my allied Armor of Misery Archon. (My lists are heavy on Ld shenanigans.)
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 05:05

Your also forgetting about clothes wrackes, a women's err, anyhow it's nice to still have my humor.

As for the topic, I haven't figured out how to use them yet except for hexrifle wounds. Putting them into venoms never works for me. I don't have any grots but do love my haemis but just to help out warriors and such.

@mushkilla and monocule, I'm gonna give that a try when I'm back on my feet from this surgery. Thanks for the input.

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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 10:14

@Jimsolo wrote:
When it comes to Wracks, I think the Scalpel Squadron is a must-have.

Maybe if you're running a null-deployment army.

I've tried it in numerous occasions and it just can't get first blood. Every game, my opponent is either fully mechanised (in which case, first blood will go to whichever unit kills his vehicle), or else anything outside vehicles are far too resilient to die to long-range splinter shots and 2 ossefactors.

How do you manage to kill anything on turn 1 with these guys?
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 11:48

@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
When it comes to Wracks, I think the Scalpel Squadron is a must-have.

Maybe if you're running a null-deployment army.

I've tried it in numerous occasions and it just can't get first blood. Every game, my opponent is either fully mechanised (in which case, first blood will go to whichever unit kills his vehicle), or else anything outside vehicles are far too resilient to die to long-range splinter shots and 2 ossefactors.

How do you manage to kill anything on turn 1 with these guys?

I've used them once and they got FB for 3pts. It did require an additional element of shooting to soften the target up first though.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 19:58

I think a couple Venoms stuffed full of Coven Wracks aren't a bad choice in general. If they don't get First Blood, they're still useful.

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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 23:14

There's a couple options. If I didn't go Null Deployment, I like to soften vulnerable targets up with other shooting and just use the Scalpel Squadron to polish them off. If I did null deploy, I usually put them in the extreme range band of the Splinter Cannons and pick a vulnerable target. If I don't get the first turn kill, my Venoms are unlikely to give up the First Blood point, and when my turn comes back around, a second turn of (possibly assisted) shooting can usually net me the extra 1-3 VPs.
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 23:29

What 'soft targets' do you regularly see and kill with Scalpel Squadrons?
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PostSubject: Re: Three types of Wracks   Thu Mar 05 2015, 23:40

Now I haven't played against Necrons in a while, but in the past I've found Tomb Spyders to be a juicy target.  Tau frequently have one or two 'ass in the breeze' units that are vulnerable to a Deep Strike attack.  Most recently, I played against Tyranids and picked off the tentacley-psyker guys (zoanthropes?  I don't know Tyranids...) for the FB.

I generally prefer targets that rely on high Toughness to protect them (like MCs), or intervening cover that I can drop in behind, or ones that deploy at great distance to remain safe.

Also at great risk are units with assy leadership who are placed close to a board edge. The negative Ld bubble of the Scalpel Squadrons makes it easier to remove them just by forcing a morale test, rather than wiping them to a man with wounds.
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