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gruyere
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PostSubject: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 03:24

Hey TDC,
I've run a basic DE list a couple of times with friends and I'm finding that I have a slight problem: I don't have a really threatening unit that an opponent must answer. Venoms and Ravagers are fantastic, but without a seriously scary unit they are the number 1 priority target, so they get picked off as the focus. I'd like to present the opponent with a terrifying unit that they have to answer, allowing my venoms to harass significantly as the focus is off them and instead of the unit. Now I don't really know if this will work, I'm just shooting around ideas, but this theme seems to be present in basically every good list I see, so I think threat saturation is pretty important. Note this doesn't have to be a shoot at me unit, just something different that forces them to react. ALSO note, I did post a similar thing in the Army List section, but I feel I should expand on this topic, if its an issue I can delete the army list post.

I am looking at this in the perspective of 1.5k/1.85k lists.

Option 1: Succubi
1x Succubus w/ Glaive
4x Incubi in Venom w/ Cannons


This unit is pretty deadly, heavy saturation of AP2, but its really not tanky outside of combat. I feel its almost more dangerous that they are so good in combat, since they will likely wipe out a squad and then end up getting shot at. Its also somewhat dangerous to advance them, as venoms are very easily popped and having them run across the board is suicidal. However, as I've seen other people describe them, this unit is like scalpel, where I send them to do work, they will most likely do it.

Option 2: DA Formation
1x Haemonculus w/ WWP, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump
1x Talos w/ Ichor Injector, TL Heat Lance
1x Cronos w/ Spirit Probe


DA is an insane formation. 4+ FNP with reroll 1s on a talos and a cronos! Absolute madness. With WWP this is like a scalpel attached to a sledgehammer. The problem with this is talos and cronos are notorious slow. Footslogging is pretty grim, but perhaps it is not so bad. I cannot expect to have them destroy fast units near them, but they can definitely at least get them out of position. Of course, I dont wanna pay 400 points to get something out of position, but I'd say they have some worth in most lists. I also like the options WWP gives me, letting them be a counter assault unit or a linebreaker on the fly is great.

Option 3: Grot Boats
1x Haemonculus w/ Scissorhand
Formation: Grotesquerie:
1x Haemonculus w/ Sump, Scissorhand
3x Grots w/ Aberration 1x Scissorhand in Raider w/ DL, Aethersails
3x Grots w/ Aberration 1x Scissorhand in Raider w/ DL, Aethersails


Grot boats seem to be a favourite of most people on TDC. Slightly different from the other two as they are in raiders, but they get to the other side of the map pretty quick so I don't think it is a big deal. This option is less tanky than the DA formation but much faster due to having dedicated transports. It is also the most expensive at around 500 pts, but it may very well be worth it. Grots can put in some absurd work against infantry, however without smash or heatlances they are probably a bit worse against AT. However, with the DA formation, the tanks can run away, with Raiders they will have a much tougher time. I am personally leaning towards this option as I believe it is the most powerful.

Option 4: Eldar Allies
Allied Formation:
Autarch w/ Mantle of Laughing God, Jetbike, Fusion gun, Laser Lance
3x Windriders
1x Wraithknight


Eldar have a lot of great stuff we can abuse due to being battle brothers somehow. The Wraithknight is an absolutely insane unit which I think is more effective than the DA formation while being around 100 points cheaper. There are also other toys we can use: a guy at my LGS told me about the benefits of WWP Wraithguard, or Howling Banshees in Raiders (the latter I am sceptical of since HB are pretty squishtown). A wave serpent is also an option for those pesky jink vehicles that I seem to run into every match. However, of all these options I think the WK is the best, however I don't know much about the unit as I haven't encountered it yet (I quit for awhile).

Option 5: ?

Maybe I'm missing a unit. I considered harlequins, however I think they are worse than all the options above.

Let me know which of these units you think is the best, and whether my thinking about threat saturation is correct!


Last edited by gruyere on Tue Feb 24 2015, 03:40; edited 2 times in total
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 03:32

Not sure what points you're playing at but I intend to run both the grotesqurie and the dark artisan. Though I am missing out on some venoms. Grots absorb obscene amounts of shots.

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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 03:39

@The Red King wrote:
Not sure what points you're playing at but I intend to run both the grotesqurie and the dark artisan. Though I am missing out on some venoms.  Grots absorb obscene amounts of shots.

Sorry I didn't make it too clear haha. I'm running 1.5k lists currently, maybe 1.85k sometimes as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 05:51

@gruyere wrote:
There are also other toys we can use: a guy at my LGS told me about the benefits of WWP Wraithguard, or Howling Banshees in Raiders (the latter I am sceptical of since HB are pretty squishtown).

if your going to stick eldar in our transports you would probably make it Fire dragons. those things are beast.

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gruyere
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 06:04

@Ispa wrote:
if your going to stick eldar in our transports you would probably make it Fire dragons. those things are beast.

Im pretty ignorant of eldar units, why are fire dragons good? Just cuz they are melta boys? We have scourges w/ heat lance or haywire blasters, seems like we'd fill that role just as well, but again I am fully ignorant so let me know Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 08:20

2 Talos with chain flails and splinter cannons - 250pts

Draws fire like no tomorrow and puts out decent splinter fire. Deploy them in the middle of your deployment zone 12" in and march them up the board. Rotate the front Talos when he is down to one wound.

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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 14:20

Nice post gruyere.

In my exp. DE really benefit from a tough scary unit (or units) that is all up in your opponents grill screaming "Deal with me or i'll hurt you bad!". As you said their presence allows all other DE units to do their job better. They are like a force multiplier.

Luckily DE are actually spoilt in this department. My advice is to start small and keep experimenting till you find something that fits your style and list.

Maybe try a HQ and a unit of grots or a sslyth/medusae bomb and turbo them into ur opponents backfield asap. Next game try WWPing them in, then try turboing in from reserves with EA. Try these same options with the grotesquerie. Give 2-3 talos or a DA a try and walk them across the table, next game try WWPing the DA in.

There's just so many options and we haven't even got to eldar or quins yet!

The correct answer to your question depends on your list, your playstyle, your local meta and what tickles your pickle.

Have fun and good luck!
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 17:49

@Mushkilla wrote:
2 Talos with chain flails and splinter cannons - 250pts

Draws fire like no tomorrow and puts out decent splinter fire. Deploy them in the middle of your deployment zone 12" in and march them up the board. Rotate the front Talos when he is down to one wound.

Hmm, I didn't even think of that. That unit is absurdly cheap and a pretty strong looming threat. I think it's slow since it moves less than the rest of our army but as I said, its more of a looming threat where if they don't deal with it there will be some serious trouble. I'll have to try it.

@Painjunky wrote:
Nice post gruyere.
Thanks man!

@Painjunky wrote:

Maybe try a HQ and a unit of grots or a sslyth/medusae bomb and turbo them into ur opponents backfield asap. Next game try WWPing them in, then try turboing in from reserves with EA. Try these same options with the grotesquerie. Give 2-3 talos or a DA a try and walk them across the table, next game try WWPing the DA in.

There's just so many options and we haven't even got to eldar or quins yet!

I totally forgot about court bombs. Medusae seem absolutely nasty for MEqs and I totally didn't realize how similar a Sslyth's statline is to grots. I'd love to try all these out, which will probably get pretty expensive but counts as units will work. Just gotta figure out how big a talos is (around a carnifex? I have a couple from when I wanted to play nids), everything else that isnt a wraithknight I have similar sized units for. I always thought DE was just venom spam or raider spam but theres a lot more options than I thought.

I did think that most of these units were similar in strength with some situational differences so I listed them all, I'll just have to play around and see what fits my meta best.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 19:24

I play at 2000 points, so I like to take the DA and the Grotesquerie. First turn flat out the Grots in their face. Use the DA as midfield board control and area denial as you march up the board. The DA takes a ridiculous amount of punishment and will hopefully buy your paper gun boats a few extra turns of life.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 20:47

How about a Baneblade? I don't have the guard codex, and thus, don't know about the HQ and troop tax, but... True, it's expensive... true they're not allied with dark eldar. But it will be the biggest fire magnet you can have. Because, unlike talos, DA and grotesque, the ennemy can't evade it, for the baneblade shoot at long range.

It should be even more effective at attacting fire against an imperium freak.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 20:56

In my opinion you got this all turned upside down.

Quote :
I don't have a really threatening unit that an opponent must answer
This, I think, is one of the greatest strengths of our Codex. Pretty much every single opponent I've ever played had their share of dedicated Hard Hitters, be it Shooting, Melee og Psykers. These all have one thing in common. No matter which of our units they decide to target with their Hard Hitter, there will pretty much always be overkill involved, meaning there will be a certain percentage of their army that will be paid for, but will never get used, because the job could be done with half the damage.
As an example, I just played a Tau player. He had the Tau Firecadre formation, so 3 Tankhunter Broadsides. The best thing he had to target was a Venom. He only had 20 dice, so he happily informed me he'd just have to roll them 3 times. Needless to say, the Venom dies on the first 20 dice. The look on his face when he realized 2/3 of his unit, and 2/3 of quite a lot of his other units, would never get to roll their dice, was quite frankly priceless Smile
To put this into perspective, we get full value out of EVERY SINGLE MODEL. Rare are the momoents when I ever do overkill. Every dice gets to be rolled. Full value.
Following up on your plan to put something "dangerous" on the table will give your opponent something to do with their Hard Hitters. The above-mentioned Tau would be getting full value of his Broadsides firing at your Dark Artisan formation. They would soak, yes, but they would also play to your opponents strength.

Also consider this. You want a dangerous target to take your opponents mind off your Venoms, so you go with the Dark Artisan. For the pricetag of this formation. For the same cost you could get almost 4 Venoms with Kabalite fillings, or 6 empty Venoms. This means that not untill you've lost your 6th Venom will you be where you were, had you taken the Dark Artisan.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Tue Feb 24 2015, 23:49

@Sigmaril wrote:
In my opinion you got this all turned upside down.

Quote :
I don't have a really threatening unit that an opponent must answer
This, I think, is one of the greatest strengths of our Codex.

I feel the same way.

My armies generally do much better when I have many weak units and no strong ones.

In contrast, it seems the more 'threatening' units I add, the worst my list does.

@sweetbacon wrote:
I play at 2000 points, so I like to take the DA and the Grotesquerie.  First turn flat out the Grots in their face.  Use the DA as midfield board control and area denial as you march up the board.  The DA takes a ridiculous amount of punishment and will hopefully buy your paper gun boats a few extra turns of life.  

I think one of my main problems is that most of our "threatening" units just aren't very threatening. Maybe my meta is unusual, but Grotesques just die like flies. If I'm lucky, they might do something first - but I just see so much S10 and Force Weapons that they just seem pointless. I'm paying a ton of points for supposed resilience that ends up being worthless.

Dark Artisan is a little better thanks to T7 and I5. However, even then, it's an awful lot of points for a melee unit with very little mobility (beyond initial deployment with WWP), almost negligible shooting and relatively piddling melee ability (only the Talos has good combat stats/weapons). And, this unit costs close to 400pts.

For about the same cost, you could have 2 Dreadknights with Heavy Psycannons. So, you have 2 units that can move 12" per turn (and 30" once per game), have T6, 4 wounds and a 5++ that can be upgraded to a 4++, 5 WS5 S10 (potentially Force) attacks on the charge and either 12 S7 AP4 Rending shots (or 2 S7 AP4 Rending pie-plates) between them. Not to mention that, for a little more, you can upgrade their shooting further with S6 AP4 torrent flamers (whereas our shooting is basically stuck as 'negligible').

So, which are likely to accomplish more? 2 Dreadknights or 1 Dark Artisan?

I guess I just look at our MCs and try to work out what I'm getting over my opponent's MCs. It's not melee ability, it's not shooting, it's not mobility (sadly), I'm not even sure we're winning in durability. So, what are we getting? What it is that we're paying for here?
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 01:36

@Sigmaril wrote:
In my opinion you got this all turned upside down.

Quote :
I don't have a really threatening unit that an opponent must answer
This, I think, is one of the greatest strengths of our Codex. Pretty much every single opponent I've ever played had their share of dedicated Hard Hitters, be it Shooting, Melee og Psykers. These all have one thing in common. No matter which of our units they decide to target with their Hard Hitter, there will pretty much always be overkill involved, meaning there will be a certain percentage of their army that will be paid for, but will never get used, because the job could be done with half the damage.

This is a really interesting idea I haven't thought about. You don't have too much AI and not enough AT with that ideology? This is a cool playstyle though and the benefits hadn't come to mind, I'll try thinking about that more next game I play. That strategy seems to play to our strengths as an army with cheap units...I'd have to play it out but this seems really promising.

@The Shredder wrote:

I feel the same way.

My armies generally do much better when I have many weak units and no strong ones.

In contrast, it seems the more 'threatening' units I add, the worst my list does.

I felt the same way looking at the statline on Grots, my meta isnt as saturated with S10 but seeing the T5 on them made me sad. Its a confusing unit. Talos and cronos are even moreso, I don't know why these floating things aren't faster but whatever.

I can definitely agree on the quality of our scary guys compared to others. I don't really understand the idea GW is trying to design DE on. We are supposed to be fast with really slow scary things that aren't that scary? I mean I understand our army shouldn't be the best at everything but its confusing nonetheless. I can see from a design standpoint that our MCs shouldnt be as good as some other races but I don't know why we have so many weird options for this stuff in our book then.

I guess a hammer unit might not be as good as I thought? I'll have to try with and without.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 09:59

Quote :
This is a really interesting idea I haven't thought about. You don't have too much AI and not enough AT with that ideology?
In the example I mentioned, you're probably right. That was just an example, though.
My regular army stocks up on Lance weapons whereever I can find it reasonably. But my point still holds. Keep it simple, cheap and numerous.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 11:09

@gruyere wrote:

I felt the same way looking at the statline on Grots, my meta isnt as saturated with S10 but seeing the T5 on them made me sad. Its a confusing unit. Talos and cronos are even moreso, I don't know why these floating things aren't faster but whatever.

With regard to Grots, I think part of the problem is that their strengths are all negated by the same thing. They rely on high toughness, multiple wounds, FNP and (in the case of Coven ones) IWND to stay in the fight. However, any Instant Death weapons counter everything but their toughness, and any S10 counters everything they have. Compare that to Wraiths or TWC - who can have 3++ saves (not to mention much stronger characters joining them).

@gruyere wrote:

I can definitely agree on the quality of our scary guys compared to others. I don't really understand the idea GW is trying to design DE on. We are supposed to be fast with really slow scary things that aren't that scary? I mean I understand our army shouldn't be the best at everything but its confusing nonetheless. I can see from a design standpoint that our MCs shouldnt be as good as some other races but I don't know why we have so many weird options for this stuff in our book then.


The trouble is, our MCs seem to be held to a very different standard to everyone else's. Ours can be reasonably durable (though aren't allowed invulnerable saves), but also have to be slow, not very strong and with pitiful shooting. So, why then are other races allowed MCs that are fast, insanely durable, S10 and with excellent shooting? Or, alternatively, why are ours not allowed to excel at anything - let alone multiple roles?

I mean, it seems like fast MCs would fit our army better (and would help the Cronos catch the units its supposed to be supporting). Or, failing that, what about at least making them more of a threat in combat? With the current Smash rules, S7 and S5 are just pitiful. And, the less said about their shooting the better.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 11:52

I think the problem with evaluating monstrous creatures against each other is that you can't truly assess them except against the rest of their own codex and their particular opponent. I'll use the wraithknight as my example.

Both MCs.

Wraithknight T8, Talos T7
Wraithknight S10, Talos S7
Both have 3+ save, wraithknight can buy 5++, Talos comes stock with 5+FNP
Wraithknight 6W, Talos 3W

So far, so good, the wraithknight seems to be on top in most categories (except save). BUT, Talos can get 2-3 models for around the same price, has the option of instant death on its close combat attacks, can split its target priority into two units. The wraithknight has the advantage of manoeuvrability, shooting power etc.

So assessing them against their own codex, the wraithknight provides a mobile heavy target, that crucially is invulnerable to S4 or less small arms fire. Yes, that means the Talos can be harmed by this, but when you look deeper into what that means, the roles for the two units are completely different. The Talos is therefore a relatively static unit in an army with extreme manoeuvrability, intended to draw small arms fire away from the more fragile options in the codex (why so many like the Dark Artisan for DS). The wraithknight isn't that - it's pointless using small arms against it because they can't wound it, so it's a focus for other things instead.

If i were facing one of those two options with my Dark Eldar army, I'd take the wraithknight every time over a pair of talos, and even more so against three (assuming you roughly equate a basic wraithknight to a pair and a suncannon upgraded knight to a trio of Talos). Our shooting will easily bring down a wraithknight in one turn if you focus your fire on it (though to be honest if it's just bringing wraithcannons I'd be tempted to ignore it, two S10 shots that don't ignore jink are hardly threatening to our vehicles when compared to a wave serpent).

Incidentally if you compare a Talos to a wraithlord, which is a similar cost, I'd definitely take the talos every time!

TL:DR - Our MCs are slow because the rest of our army is fast, they fill a hole that we don't have elsewhere - look at other MCs in relation to their own codex and you'll see a similar pattern.

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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 12:01

Talos are also dirt cheap. Unlike an invulnerable save FNP stacks with armour and cover saves. It's also a tiny model making it easy to hide out of sight and get cover. You can screen a Talos, you can't screen a wraith knight.

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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 12:09

Just don't forget that we have a ton of cheap useful units to fill the rest of our list up with AFTER those 400 or so points have been spent on DA. Whereas a spacemarine player might spend 400 or so points on a deathstar unit, and then have considerably less to fill out their list with.

For example, our awesome venom kabalite unit. costs between 105 and 120 (depending on blaster)
I can't see where space marines can get something as good as that unit for only 105-120 points. 10 tactical marines are already about 140 points without upgrades or transport. 70 points if you keep them minimum. Stick those 5 in a razorback I guess, to try to emulate our venom/kabalite unit, and it's not as good.

So having a single hammer/expensive/deathstar or whatever unit in our lists hurts us less than it would a marine player - because everything else in his codex is also expensive.

However, saying that - MSU styled lists are better at the moment with maelstrom and all that. Which makes our venom and reaver units even more useful now if we take them in high numbers.

Also, I don't know if we should be comparing our MCs with other codices' MCs because again, we have the rest of our codex's units that we will be using with ours, and they have there's - there's no reason to just say "well our MC would lose against their MC, so ours is bad"
But I obviously wouldn't complain if they were faster, I wish they were. I guess fast doesn't fit the coven aspect though.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 15:29

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I think the problem with evaluating monstrous creatures against each other is that you can't truly assess them except against the rest of their own codex and their particular opponent. I'll use the wraithknight as my example.

Sorry, but there are limits to which this applies.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Both MCs.

Wraithknight T8, Talos T7
Wraithknight S10, Talos S7
Both have 3+ save, wraithknight can buy 5++, Talos comes stock with 5+FNP
Wraithknight 6W, Talos 3W

So far, so good, the wraithknight seems to be on top in most categories (except save). BUT, Talos can get 2-3 models for around the same price, has the option of instant death on its close combat attacks, can split its target priority into two units. The wraithknight has the advantage of manoeuvrability, shooting power etc.

The Wraithknight also has 2 S10 AP2 guns that can cause ID. It also has far less competition, whilst Talos are competing with Ravagers for HS slots.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

So assessing them against their own codex, the wraithknight provides a mobile heavy target, that crucially is invulnerable to S4 or less small arms fire. Yes, that means the Talos can be harmed by this, but when you look deeper into what that means, the roles for the two units are completely different. The Talos is therefore a relatively static unit in an army with extreme manoeuvrability, intended to draw small arms fire away from the more fragile options in the codex (why so many like the Dark Artisan for DS). The wraithknight isn't that - it's pointless using small arms against it because they can't wound it, so it's a focus for other things instead.

But, why would anyone shoot small arms fire at a Talos (unless it was the only target)?

This seems more like "well, we'll include this bad unit and hope that your opponent is brain-dead when it comes to target-priority". Neutral

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

If i were facing one of those two options with my Dark Eldar army, I'd take the wraithknight every time over a pair of talos, and even more so against three (assuming you roughly equate a basic wraithknight to a pair and a suncannon upgraded knight to a trio of Talos). Our shooting will easily bring down a wraithknight in one turn if you focus your fire on it (though to be honest if it's just bringing wraithcannons I'd be tempted to ignore it, two S10 shots that don't ignore jink are hardly threatening to our vehicles when compared to a wave serpent).

I'm the opposite - facing a pair of Talos would be infinitely preferable to me. Their shooting is negligible and they're insanely slow. In contrast, a Wraithknight has long-range guns that auto-pen my vehicles and explode them on a 5+ (even with Jink, I don't like those odds - especially since I want to avoid jinking if I can). Plus, with a 12" move, it moves too fast to be ignored and can also jump onto distant objectives during (or at the end of) the game.

2 Talos are a little harder to kill with splinter fire, but killing them is also far less urgent. Plus, the difference isn't anywhere near enough to make up for their pitiful mobility.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Incidentally if you compare a Talos to a wraithlord, which is a similar cost, I'd definitely take the talos every time!

Depends what you want, I guess. The Wraithlord is a better fire-platform. But, given the choice, I'd just take the Wraithknight and leave the others to rot.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

TL:DR - Our MCs are slow because the rest of our army is fast, they fill a hole that we don't have elsewhere - look at other MCs in relation to their own codex and you'll see a similar pattern.

So, considering that Eldar are equally fast, why is the Wraithknight not stuck at moving 6"?
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 16:06

Please explain the limits you think apply - your very next sentence you state that the talos is competing against the ravager whereas the wraithknight doesn't have much competition, which is exactly my point, the wraithknight is a more viable choice because of the rest of its codex, whereas the talos is in a slot where we have alternatives (some would say better ones)

Yes, the wraithknight has two S10 guns with AP2 and ID. It can fire those guns at 1 single target and for that they pay what, 240pts? Against which i need to pepper it with 54 splinter shots (shots, not wounds) to bring it down (assuming statistically average results). A single Talos without a boost to FNP will take 41 splinter shots.

You shoot a Talos when it's either the only target or the most threatening, I'm not pretending its as much of an immediate threat as a wraithknight, but it can still be a threat (that could be for example, it's sitting on an objective!)

the odds of a wraithknight exploding one of our vehicles, assuming a normal jink is 2/9 (so two vehicles per game?) - against a non-jinking venom it's 8/9 chance of wrecking it at least.

Why does the 12" move of a wraithknight mean it can't be ignored - all it means is it's likely to get line of sight, most wraithknight players will tell you the last place they want them is in combat.

I wouldn't consider Eldar to be equally as fast at us, the open topped of our transports makes a big difference in that respect, where Eldar are either stuck waiting a turn following a disembark to charge, or taking us as allies for our transports.

In respect of the Eldar Codex - look at their Heavy support section (and bear in mind it's likely to be toned down when re-done for 7th edition).

Wraithknight - big nasty, not worth shooting at except by high S weapons, but fire magnet. Average save for such a big unit.
Dark Reapers - infantry, static, nasty versus elite infantry
Falcon - pointless, never seen one on the table
Fire prism - able to take on anything with three varied firing modes - the all-rounder.
Nightspinner - good against infantry
Support battery - static firepower
War walker - lightweight damage resistance but high damage output
Wraithlord - slow, mid-level fire output

The Talos is our wraithlord, you can argue as much as you like as to why we don't have a wraithknight alternative, but the Talos isn't a direct comparison. If you want to look at mobile firepower, the Voidraven puts out damage similar to the suncannon wraithknight much of the time (though I grant you it's overcosted). It's also much harder to hit than the wraithknight.

I put the wraithknight in the same category as just about every big Tyranid nasty for us - it's a good matchup, because we negate its inherent strength - T8. Think of it this way - to us, a wraithknight is like killing 6 space marines, and it's much easier to see!

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 17:01

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Yes, the wraithknight has two S10 guns with AP2 and ID. It can fire those guns at 1 single target and for that they pay what, 240pts? Against which i need to pepper it with 54 splinter shots (shots, not wounds) to bring it down (assuming statistically average results). A single Talos without a boost to FNP will take 41 splinter shots.

The difference being the Talos will least twice as long to get to you.  Wink

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

You shoot a Talos when it's either the only target or the most threatening, I'm not pretending its as much of an immediate threat as a wraithknight, but it can still be a threat (that could be for example, it's sitting on an objective!)

If we're playing Eternal War missions, then it's welcome to sit on that objective for 3-4 turns if it likes. It's basically 125pts that's not contributing to the game during that time. Hell, even in maelstrom it's probably more efficient to just ignore the thing and deal with actual threats. I mean, unless I specifically need the objective its guarding, then it's not really bothering me.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

the odds of a wraithknight exploding one of our vehicles, assuming a normal jink is 2/9 (so two vehicles per game?) - against a non-jinking venom it's 8/9 chance of wrecking it at least.

Which is still more dead vehicles than 2 Talos are likely to bring down. tongue

In addition, even if they don't wreck it, they basically force a Ravager or Venom to jink - which cripples its firepower next turn.

Granted, though, it's far less of a threat to our vehicles than Wave Serpents. But, more because Wave Serpents are insanely broken.  Rolling Eyes

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I wouldn't consider Eldar to be equally as fast at us, the open topped of our transports makes a big difference in that respect, where Eldar are either stuck waiting a turn following a disembark to charge, or taking us as allies for our transports.

That seems a little disingenuous. They still have fast skimmer vehicles, they have jetbikes as troops, and their HQs are far more mobile than any of ours.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

In respect of the Eldar Codex - look at their Heavy support section (and bear in mind it's likely to be toned down when re-done for 7th edition).

Wraithknight - big nasty, not worth shooting at except by high S weapons, but fire magnet. Average save for such a big unit.
Dark Reapers - infantry, static, nasty versus elite infantry
Falcon - pointless, never seen one on the table
Fire prism - able to take on anything with three varied firing modes - the all-rounder.
Nightspinner - good against infantry
Support battery - static firepower
War walker - lightweight damage resistance but high damage output
Wraithlord - slow, mid-level fire output


Other than the Wraithknight, the only HS choice I see Eldar players use is War Walkers.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

The Talos is our wraithlord, you can argue as much as you like as to why we don't have a wraithknight alternative, but the Talos isn't a direct comparison.

Ok, I'll accept that the Talos is closer to a Wraithlord (though that really wasn't the point I was making). Regardless, shall we look at how many Eldar lists feature Wraithlords? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it isn't a large number.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
If you want to look at mobile firepower, the Voidraven puts out damage similar to the suncannon wraithknight much of the time (though I grant you it's overcosted). It's also much harder to hit than the wraithknight.

It's harder to hit, but also far more fragile if you do hit it. Also, perhaps more importantly, it only has one shot with its large blast. Razz

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I put the wraithknight in the same category as just about every big Tyranid nasty for us - it's a good matchup, because we negate its inherent strength - T8. Think of it this way - to us, a wraithknight is like killing 6 space marines, and it's much easier to see!

That is true, but I still much prefer to fight MCs that are less mobile - even if they are tougher.

Incidentally, my least favourite MCs to face are Dreadknights.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Wed Feb 25 2015, 19:15

Really good discussion.  Both sides make valid arguments.  I would say that Wraith Knights and Talos are  kind of like apples-to-oranges.  Wraith Knights excel at shooting and punching vehicles to death.  They ar are a bully unit to push up in your opponent's face early game.  However against dedicated CC units (and some other MCs) or hordes, they are pretty lackluster in CC.  Wraith Knights can get locked into combat and sidelined for most of an entire game against a 10 man tac squad with surprising ease.  


Talos are area denial and movement control.  DE depend heavily on the movement phase to win.  Talos can eliminate movement options for a lot of opponents due to their real and perceived threat level.  Talos can punch vehicles to death, but are better at mulching heavy armor, MCs, and hordes thanks to WS5 and re-roll wounds/Instant Death Fleshbane weapons.  

Also, if comparing the two, I think the apt comparison is one Wraith Knight and  a squad of 2-3 Talos (or a Coven formation) which where I feel they really shine.  I also think Talos can do AT well also, as a squad of three is three twin-linked HWB shots that don't need to Jink to survive.  Or they're one and a half Venoms that don't need to Jink, and don't care about AT shots coming at them, if you're doing AI.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:49

@Sigmaril wrote:
In my opinion you got this all turned upside down.

Quote :
I don't have a really threatening unit that an opponent must answer
This, I think, is one of the greatest strengths of our Codex.

As Caldria said DE can field a threatening unit as well as MSU quite easily.  This is one of the greatest strengths of our dex.

At 1500pts it is easy to include a 400pt threatening unit and still have 14 other MSU or vehicles.
At 1850pts it can easily be 17 MSU or vehicles + the threatening unit.
At 2000pts it can easily be 19 MSU or vehicles + the threatening unit.

The value of a threatening unit is not that it is a bullet sponge, (which it is), and not that it has huge damage potential, (which it does), its that when you deep strike or turbo it into the opponents back field next to objs and vulnerable units/vehicles he usually second guesses himself and changes his entire battle plan.

His units that don't want to move do so to try to escape or get shots on it.
His units that were moving forward to engage and grab obj do a complete 180 and come back to deal with it. I have seen it a hundred times!

Even if it does no damage to his army at all, this is a big enough tactical advantage to win you the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:12

That's an interesting notion.

So, do you think it's better to have one threatening unit like Dark Artisan - rather than just having more MSU units?
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PostSubject: Re: Threatening Units   Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:21

@The Shredder wrote:
The difference being the Talos will least twice as long to get to you.  Wink

True, but does the Knight really want to get to you? It's better as a shooting platform, so the 12" move is only really good for getting into range or getting out from behind particularly tall buildings, or threatening tanks.

@The Shredder wrote:
If we're playing Eternal War missions, then it's welcome to sit on that objective for 3-4 turns if it likes. It's basically 125pts that's not contributing to the game during that time. Hell, even in maelstrom it's probably more efficient to just ignore the thing and deal with actual threats. I mean, unless I specifically need the objective its guarding, then it's not really bothering me.

I play eternal war missions almost exclusively - and the Talos has certainly contributed whenever I've taken it, both through shooting and/or combat. It's still a big nasty and people don't like seeing it on the table.

@The Shredder wrote:

Which is still more dead vehicles than 2 Talos are likely to bring down. tongue

In addition, even if they don't wreck it, they basically force a Ravager or Venom to jink - which cripples its firepower next turn.

Granted, though, it's far less of a threat to our vehicles than Wave Serpents. But, more because Wave Serpents are insanely broken.  Rolling Eyes

Indeed, my point is though that to us it's not that threatening, and cover isn't difficult to find to replace the jink save (at least not where I play).

@The Shredder wrote:
That seems a little disingenuous. They still have fast skimmer vehicles, they have jetbikes as troops, and their HQs are far more mobile than any of ours.

I take your point, though i find the lack of an assault transport for the Eldar a bit bizarre, given that they basically get the best of everything else!

@The Shredder wrote:

Other than the Wraithknight, the only HS choice I see Eldar players use is War Walkers.
Which proves the point that it best fills the gap in the Eldar list of tough, threatening unit.

@The Shredder wrote:
Ok, I'll accept that the Talos is closer to a Wraithlord (though that really wasn't the point I was making). Regardless, shall we look at how many Eldar lists feature Wraithlords? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it isn't a large number.

And hence why i said that comparing MC's directly doesn't work well because you need to look at the whole codex to figure out its weak areas.

@The Shredder wrote:
That is true, but I still much prefer to fight MCs that are less mobile - even if they are tougher.

Up to a point I'd agree with you, but for me it's about purpose, if there's a wraithknight hopping around the board I'm really not bothered, it's mainly a shooty unit and i'll only target it if it's shooting is threatening me. If a Talos is heading towards an objective in the late game, that's much more of a scary prospect, because getting rid of it is going to be a pain.

@The Shredder wrote:
Incidentally, my least favourite MCs to face are Dreadknights.
Absolutely with you on that one, only slightly ahead of Riptides, ahead of wraithknights. BUT. That order of scariness changes if I'm using my marines, particularly if I'm going elite with them - the suncannon wraithknight becomes very scary indeed if you bring terminators.

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