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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sat Feb 28 2015, 23:37

I was initially super excited for the Harlequins and couldn't wait to try out all sorts of leadership shenanigans with the Shadowseer and Death Jester.  Then I saw the lack of an HQ slot and the formations and my enthusiasm waned quite a bit.  This seems like a textbook case of GW snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  They made some really fun, interesting rules for their models and then gave them a needless restriction that needlessly hinders player choice, and, I would would imagine, resulted in many people to concluding that Harlequins are not worth it because you are limited to GW's designated formations and unit choices.  Unless you're playing unbound games, I don't see Harlequins as being worth it (and it seems pretty clear by now that GW is pushing unbound).
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 00:52

While I agree that the restrictions are very limiting (and frustrating), I'm pretty sure someone, somewhere, will find a way to successfully use at least one of the formation with DE. Time will tell Smile
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 02:31

I'm considering running harlequins with my coven, just a troop of actors. Join them with a haemonculus with stump ( for fleet). He would give them fearless turn 1 and zealot turn 4. He could also give them access to a WWP.

That would also open up access to the awesome harlequin warlord table. Still its not something I'm going to be trying anytime soon.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 03:54

Nearly posted questioning that idea as I was being stupid and forgetting those USR's pass to units
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 05:49

I agree that the CAD is restrictive, needlessly so in fact, but I still intend to try them out.

A single "cast of players" does deny the ability to put the shadowseer into DE units but you still gain access to the powers, the artifacts the warlord traits, and a fairly killy CC squad which fits nicely into a raider.

Also the heroes path does grant stealth and shrouded, which confers to the unit (including I would imagine embarking on a venom as I understand the rules). The death jester is then a bit of a tax (though pinning can still help our assault units). The solitaire is his own special brand of neat and the Seer in a stealth/shrouded venom is obviously beneficial as well.

These two options, while not granting the full range of synergy, do come in at about 300 points with little tax in units or money.

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katfude
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 06:49

I'm very excited to have a Death Jester ride in a venom with an Archon with -2LD armor and a blaster.

They'll shoot around the board and find enemy units that I want to move into/out of cover, into/out of assault range or off an objective since the shrieker firing in shuri cannon mode will generally cause 1+ wound to anything with a 3+ armor and at a -4LD, that's a greater than 50% chance I get to make the fall back move for my opponent. jocolor
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 06:58

@SweaterKittens wrote:
At the risk of restating what's already been said, I think you're missing the point of Harlequins, Hero. They fill a niche that should have been filled by Wyches - that is, an elite assault unit. I still have high hopes for a Wych cult supplement at some point, but until then, Harlequins are assault units that are actually worth their points. Plus, they bring some other interesting stuff to the table in the form of Jetbike gun platforms, and pseudo-venoms. I think people are talking a lot about the leadership shenanigans because the potential is interesting, but it's certainly not THE reason to take them.

All that being said, them being good at it doesn't necessarily make assault more viable than shooting, since they'll either get shot up before they get to combat, or get shot up immediately after trouncing something in melee. It's what I like to call "The Incubi Effect". But seriously, as you said, our best assets are flooding the board with poison and lances. It's not that people are saying that Harlequins will completely revolutionize our playstyle, only that they finally give DE some good assault units, which is nice because DE are touted as being assault-y and we really don't have good tools for it (barring Grots).

No, pretty sure I'm not missing anything.  Elite or not, they're still T3 5++, for a 6-man unit that's not really in the cheap or spam category. Assault is dead for units of this ilk, long live shooting.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 07:36

@The Red King wrote:
Also the heroes path does grant stealth and shrouded, which confers to the unit (including I would imagine embarking on a venom as I understand the rules)

Unfortunately stealth and shrouded do not confer to a transport and the ICs in the heroes formation cannot join other units.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 09:57

@HERO wrote:


No, pretty sure I'm not missing anything.  Elite or not, they're still T3 5++, for a 6-man unit that's not really in the cheap or spam category.  Assault is dead for units of this ilk, long live shooting.

Doesn't need to be spammy.
I can imagine running "CAST OF PLAYERS" and "THE HEROES’ PATH" and making it work as it provides you with MSU, good psi powers, Ld shenanigans and a quality assault unit. You will have to buy a Fast Slot Raider for the troupe but this doesn't hurt much.
Sure. Depends on the enemy army and is not what I would see as hyper-competitive but it can make a solid support for a DE army.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 10:04

Quote :
You will have to buy a Fast Slot Raider
If you know what you are doing you will run them on foot. Veil of Tears is way better defense then Raider. You cant cast it inside raider.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 11:19

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
You will have to buy a Fast Slot Raider
If you know what you are doing you will run them on foot. Veil of Tears is way better defense then Raider. You cant cast it inside raider.

Raider adds to null-deplyment, raider can deepstrike anywhere, raider has mobility.
It is not about the protection it gives, but about the mobility. Veil of thears is not gonna help if you crawl 6" across the table (as they do not have Rising Crescendo) and the raider also offers a bigger bubble for their crusader USR (not that it is useful but... little things..)
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 19:38

Raider add also a fast way to kill them off Wink
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 19:51

@Cerve wrote:
Raider add also a fast way to kill them off Wink

Hardly as it is not the only vehicle deepstriking, can jink and shares target priority with things like Grots and Dark Artisan. Even if the Raider is focussed, manages to miss all his jink saves AND blows up thats a lot of firepower not going onto your other units.
Win-win situation.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 20:14

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Raider add also a fast way to kill them off Wink

Hardly as it is not the only vehicle deepstriking, can jink and shares target priority with things like Grots and Dark Artisan. Even if the Raider is focussed, manages to miss all his jink saves AND blows up thats a lot of firepower not going onto your other units.
Win-win situation.

Uhm..no. I don't need to blow up the Raider, simply you cannot cast Veil as imbarked unit. So I can simply wreck your raider, and then shoot theme up.

Dark Artisan AND this Raider AND Grots? No deploly then, I don't like that strategy. Too much risky.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Sun Mar 01 2015, 20:36

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@HERO wrote:


No, pretty sure I'm not missing anything.  Elite or not, they're still T3 5++, for a 6-man unit that's not really in the cheap or spam category.  Assault is dead for units of this ilk, long live shooting.

Doesn't need to be spammy.
I can imagine running "CAST OF PLAYERS" and "THE HEROES’ PATH" and making it work as it provides you with MSU, good psi powers, Ld shenanigans and a quality assault unit. You will have to buy a Fast Slot Raider for the troupe but this doesn't hurt much.
Sure. Depends on the enemy army and is not what I would see as hyper-competitive but it can make a solid support for a DE army.

OK, so the first point of not cheap then. It's not even hyper-competitive, it's just not competitive at all. So yes, in that sense, play Harlies with DE for fun since the game is supposed to be about fun.
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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:44

Not exactly about synergies unless I missed something big, but about the new clowns nontheless:

I started to build my skyweavers, and apart from the majority of the net, I think I can and will use them as part of a Cegorach's Jest formation. But I noticed, that they come with large skimmer bases, same diameter like raiders/venoms ... so a unit of 3 (as I plan to run them) has a relatively big footprint, not to mention a full squad of them Shocked

Does this fact helps them, in the context of DE, apart from being harder hit by blasts/templates?
Does it make them better in assaulting (more models in btb contact)?

Just a few rumblings from me, couldn't find a better place and was to lazy to make a new post about such a minor thing Smile

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 11:33

@Cerve wrote:


Uhm..no. I don't need to blow up the Raider, simply you cannot cast Veil as imbarked unit. So I can simply wreck your raider, and then shoot theme up.

Dark Artisan AND this Raider AND Grots? No deploly then, I don't like that strategy. Too much risky.

Which is completely irellevant as your veiled clowns still only have an average assault range of 13".
So if you are standing 19" away with a veil, I only need to move 6" closer to just shoot you up on average rolls.
Veil only protects you if you are far far away. If you come closer (which you will as they are melee) you will get shot up the turn before assaulting (and again when assaulting) anyways.
The Raider can get you into assault range, you are still able to cast your spells after disembarking and you only have to survive overwatch.

Null Deployment does bear a risk but it can be minimized and is nearly always worth taking.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:03

@HERO wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@HERO wrote:


No, pretty sure I'm not missing anything.  Elite or not, they're still T3 5++, for a 6-man unit that's not really in the cheap or spam category.  Assault is dead for units of this ilk, long live shooting.

Doesn't need to be spammy.
I can imagine running "CAST OF PLAYERS" and "THE HEROES’ PATH" and making it work as it provides you with MSU, good psi powers, Ld shenanigans and a quality assault unit. You will have to buy a Fast Slot Raider for the troupe but this doesn't hurt much.
Sure. Depends on the enemy army and is not what I would see as hyper-competitive but it can make a solid support for a DE army.

OK, so the first point of not cheap then.  It's not even hyper-competitive, it's just not competitive at all.  So yes, in that sense, play Harlies with DE for fun since the game is supposed to be about fun.

Heroes'Path IS competitve
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 17:57

@Cerve wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@HERO wrote:


No, pretty sure I'm not missing anything.  Elite or not, they're still T3 5++, for a 6-man unit that's not really in the cheap or spam category.  Assault is dead for units of this ilk, long live shooting.

Doesn't need to be spammy.
I can imagine running "CAST OF PLAYERS" and "THE HEROES’ PATH" and making it work as it provides you with MSU, good psi powers, Ld shenanigans and a quality assault unit. You will have to buy a Fast Slot Raider for the troupe but this doesn't hurt much.
Sure. Depends on the enemy army and is not what I would see as hyper-competitive but it can make a solid support for a DE army.

OK, so the first point of not cheap then.  It's not even hyper-competitive, it's just not competitive at all.  So yes, in that sense, play Harlies with DE for fun since the game is supposed to be about fun.

Heroes'Path IS competitve

To who?  It's floating around 250 points for a total of 3 guys who totals up to 7 wounds.  To me, that's the only one that I would remotely think about taking in DE:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/02/dark-eldar-harlequins-with-kabal.html

Wave Serpents do everything Starweavers do, but better.

Harlequins are a T3 5++ assault unit that wants a durable transport to get them across the table, but the best one doesn't have an assault ramp.  Instead, we can feed them a cheap Raider with Aethersails, but it's a paper airplane that will get punched in the face and blow up all those expensive models.

Back to the trio;

It's 250 points for THREE guys, one of which is completely CC-dependent and might not even make his points back because the second he steps out of cover (or even if he is in, Ignore Cover), he's going to get lit up and die.  3 Wounds, even with EW, at 3++ means nothing to the shooting heavy meta that is today.  A single dakka Tyrant will kill him, and he won't even be able to hurt him in return.  The Death Jester is fun if he works, and he's probably doing most of the work in your list, but a single Wave Serpent puts him down.  Then we have the Shadowseer, who can barely cast anything from Phantasm because he can't join units, and has to rely on lucky rolls from Telepathy to make a difference.  Plus, he needs to take an extra level to be truly effective, so at that stage, you might as well take a Farseer.

You know what I think 250 points for 3 guys can buy you?  I don't know, maybe +4 Venoms/Raiders in a RSR detachment, 2 Ravagers, 2 Razorwings, another full stock gunboat + more with blasters, 2 half-stock gunboats with blasters, a gunboat plus a wwp archon, a Wraithknight, a unit of Fire Dragons in a WS, an almost full squad of Dire Avengers in WS, I'm sure/hope you get the point by now.

Like I said, Harlies for fun, but please don't talk about them in a competitive environment like it's fact.  They're unproven, and everything that suggests they should be competitive is pointing the other way.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 18:10

These 3 guys can do what EVERY other choice can't.

Try to belive.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 18:13

@Cerve wrote:
These 3 guys can do what EVERY other choice can't.

Try to belive.

I don't think I ever laughed as hard as I did just now without coffee this early in the morning, thank you sir.

Try to believe lol!
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 18:14

@HERO wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
These 3 guys can do what EVERY other choice can't.

Try to belive.

I don't think I ever laughed as hard as I did just now without coffee this early in the morning, thank you sir.

Try to believe lol!


You choice Smile I don't care, I continue to win
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 18:24

@Cerve wrote:
You choice Smile I don't care, I continue to win

I'm not laughing at you man, don't worry. This whole level of awkwardness and lost in translation is truly part of the great Laughing God's plan for monday morning.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Mon Mar 02 2015, 18:32

@HERO wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
You choice Smile I don't care, I continue to win

I'm not laughing at you man, don't worry.  This whole level of awkwardness and lost in translation is truly part of the great Laughing God's plan for monday morning.


I know, my english sucks lol!
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Dirtydeeds
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PostSubject: Re: Quin/De synergy   Fri Mar 06 2015, 16:02

Unfortuntaly, I have to agree with Mushkilla and HERO on this topic.  Harlequins look incredibly fun and have potential to synergize well with Dark Eldar, Eldar, or Coven.  However, they are more expensive and equally as fragile as Dark Eldar.  That's not a winning combination in my book.  

I have seen many posts of Theoryhammer here and on Dakka that drool over the effectiveness of Harlequins in combat, but they always forget one crucial aspect of the game, Overwatch.  I am well aware that you can Pin a unit and prevent it from Overwatching with the use of Hallucinogenic Grenades, but you're relying on a To Hit roll, then a failed leadership by your opponent.  You begin to add way to many variables just to get them into combat.  I try to prevent arguments that use hypothetical "what if" arguments, but this one needs it.  What if you play a Gunline Tau?  Those T3 5++ units will not survive Overwatch.  I had a 5W unit of Grotesques assault Firewarriors get blasted away by Overwatch, and I had a 4+ cover save from most of the fire coming into that unit.  

Now I want to talk about the Death Jester.  I love his ability to manipulate a unit with his special rule, but there are too many factors that dictate the success of his ability.  First you need to hit, then wound, then your opponent needs to fail Armor/Cover/Feel No Pain (If applicable), THEN he needs to fail his leadership.  Thats a bare minimum of 4 dice rolls that need to go in your favor for it to work.  I can't say I'm sold on the guy.  

The Solitare could be fun, but I could see a shooty army bringing him down before he could earn his points back.  But his incredible mobility could aid in his survival.  Correct placement could create an effective harrass unit that would be difficult for your opponent and cause him to shoot your Solitare over other units in your army.  I'll play him a few times, but I doubt I'll bring him to a tournament.

Troupes, the Wyches we want. This unit has great potential, but as I stated above, can run into problems without some lucky roles.  Perhaps I would feel better about taking them if I didn't need to take three to fulfill the Masque detachment.

The Shadowseer is by far my favorite unit in the whole book.  If she had been an HQ, I believe a lot more people would be buying into the army.  For 85 points you have access to a Psyker with many fun and useful powers that benefit combat oriented units such as Veil of Tears, reverse invisibility, and Shrouding powers.  Coupled with Fleshbane, Fleet, Hit and Run, and Pinning grenades, she helps any assault unit she joins.  I don't care if I have to go unbound to include a Shadowseer, I'm including at least one with each unit of Grotesques.

My current Strategy is to mirror two units of Groteques utilizing the Grotesquerie Detachment.  7 Grots, 1 Aberation, One Haemie with WWP, and a ML2 Shadowseer.  One unit will have Armor of Misery and the other will have Mask of Secrets.  That equates to a -5 leadership bubble with Pinning Grenades and Psychic Screams the turn they Deepstrike.  I don't plan on using Veil of Tears because I actually want some grotesques to die to benefit from Rampage.  Yes it's unbound, but I don't get ObSec from any of my units and all of my Coven Formations get Freakish Spectacle, so why bother?

Anyways, my two cents.


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