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 Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker

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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Sun Feb 22 2015, 22:34

When I bring him I make him the warlord ( I bring 2-3 more talos anyway so rerolling 1's is nice. I give him the nightmare doll for a 3+ fnp and I give him the syndriq sump and the scissorhand (or whichever gives him rending. I charged a kitted out necron overlord and he lasted 10 rounds of combat (we simulated it because I wanted to kill that lychguard squad.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Sun Feb 22 2015, 22:55

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
I give him the nightmare doll for a 3+ fnp

I thought the spirit prob couldn't improve FNP beyond a 4+?

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Sun Feb 22 2015, 23:00

The nightmare doll adds 1 to your FnP rolls. So your FnP is only 4+ but you pass it on rolls of 3+
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Sun Feb 22 2015, 23:02

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
I give him the nightmare doll for a 3+ fnp

I thought the spirit prob couldn't improve FNP beyond a 4+?

The +1 from the Nightmare Doll means that the Haemie can pass the FNP rolls on a 3+, as 3 + 1 (Doll effect) = 4 + FNP.\

Edit: Ninja'd!
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Mon Feb 23 2015, 03:34

This isn't RAW, but due to the effects and language used, I would assume the intent was a 4+. I realize that is a lot of assumption, but it wouldn't surprise me to see TOs rule a 4+ max on the roll.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Mon Feb 23 2015, 10:10

Because, in the age of Wave Serpents, Imperial Knights and Flyrants, a single T4 model with no armour or invulnerable save but 3+ FNP will just dominate the game.

I mean, what can possibly stand against him?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Mon Feb 23 2015, 10:32

@Myrvn wrote:
This isn't RAW, but due to the effects and language used, I would assume the intent was a 4+. I realize that is a lot of assumption, but it wouldn't surprise me to see TOs rule a 4+ max on the roll.

I disagree. The wording, and intent, actually seem very clear. The Spirit Probe improves the FNP rule itself, ie FNP (6+) becomes FNP (5+).

Spirit Probe wrote:
The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+

The Nightmare Doll, on the other hand, very specifically improves the dice roll rather than the FNP 'threshold'

Nightmare Doll wrote:
The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes

Different rules with different effects and there is no basis to apply the restriction in the Spirit Probe rule to the effect of the Nightmare Doll. FNP is still 4+ but the bearer receives a bonus to his dice roll.

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Mon Feb 23 2015, 11:16

Exactly, it's like seizing the initiative always being done on a 6+ but you will get warlord traits that add to your roll, allowing you to seize the initiative (which is 6+) on a roll of 5+ (as it is adding 1) or a 2+ (as it adds 4) with the new harlequins warlord traits.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Tue Feb 24 2015, 21:37

I'd say it's more like an Autarch's manipulating the Reserves roll.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Wed Feb 25 2015, 18:18

As a question, guys, let's say my list includes Dark Artisan (with WWP), and my opponent's list includes Grav Centurions (possibly with an attached SM character). What should I do?

- Should I attempt to kill (or severely deplete) them before my DA arrives?

- Should I just try to deploy my DA as far away from them as possible?

- Should I just ignore them and accept the inevitable slaughter of my DA?

- Should I do something else?

(Assume that I do not have sufficient melee elements in my list to tie up the Centurions.)
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Wed Feb 25 2015, 18:42

I'll say in advance that I don't have much experience against a centstar - most of what I know of them are from batreps that I've seen.

But generally the lists that have a centstar tend to have very little or no vehicles in the rest of the list. Which then frees up reavers (if you have them that is) to send to the centstar. Their hammer of wrath hits do pose quite a bit of a threat (depending on their numbers, should go for 6-12 and get as many caltrops as you can)

They have no invul saves, so those rends will go right through

Their shooting only wounds you on 5s and you will still get your 5+ FnP - so when they overwatch it isn't as lethal.

In combat they will wound you on 3s at least, instead of 2's and you will still get your FnP, and they only have 1 attack each (2 for the sarge) So you are fairly likely to survive a turn or 2 of combat, and you can hit and run out when needed and charge back in. This is against the centurions themselves.

This all depends on what characters are with them though - as the characters pretty much are what take a centstar from good to deadly. Any beastly combat characters in there will most likely chew up your reavers (however, that first charge of the reavers will still be a threat with all those rending HoW hits)

In addition, powers like forboding will probably hurt badly when they overwatch (but you can at least jink for a 3+ unless they also have ignores cover)

The main powers they hope for unfortunately will hurt you a lot - ignores cover and they will be twinlinked often too. At least invisibility you can pretty much ignore as your HoW are a direct counter to invis.

To be honest, I have no idea how I would deal with a fully tooled up centstar with Draigo, Tigurius and librarian.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Wed Feb 25 2015, 21:46

@The Shredder wrote:
As a question, guys, let's say my list includes Dark Artisan (with WWP), and my opponent's list includes Grav Centurions (possibly with an attached SM character). What should I do?

- Should I attempt to kill (or severely deplete) them before my DA arrives?

- Should I just try to deploy my DA as far away from them as possible?

- Should I just ignore them and accept the inevitable slaughter of my DA?

- Should I do something else?

(Assume that I do not have sufficient melee elements in my list to tie up the Centurions.)

I realize is probably not within the parameters you specified, but if you are reasonably confident you'll be facing Grav Centurions (and possibly a full blown Centstar), then I would leave the DA at home.  A full unit of Cents with SGT, amps, and scopes can take it down in one turn if your opponent rolls well.  

Instead, I'd take a Grotesquerie with Urien Rakarth.  The Cents need sixes to wound and then you can use Urien as a tank because he'll still get his 4++/4+FNP/IWND.  I've only tried this once and it was about as close to a hard counter for Centurions as I've seen.  Also, the Cents should have two turns, max, to shoot at your Grotstar.  And once you're in CC with them, they are a non-factor for the rest of the game unless they have Draigo for GOI.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Thu Feb 26 2015, 00:20

@sweetbacon wrote:
I realize is probably not within the parameters you specified, but if you are reasonably confident you'll be facing Grav Centurions (and possibly a full blown Centstar), then I would leave the DA at home.  A full unit of Cents with SGT, amps, and scopes can take it down in one turn if your opponent rolls well.  

Instead, I'd take a Grotesquerie with Urien Rakarth.  The Cents need sixes to wound and then you can use Urien as a tank because he'll still get his 4++/4+FNP/IWND.  I've only tried this once and it was about as close to a hard counter for Centurions as I've seen.  Also, the Cents should have two turns, max, to shoot at your Grotstar.  And once you're in CC with them, they are a non-factor for the rest of the game unless they have Draigo for GOI.

Unfortunately, I don't know what list I'll be facing in advance (and see Centurions relatively rarely), so I can't tailor to it in this way.

In addition, I've found Grotesques to be pretty awful in my meta. I just see too many ID Weapons and S10 for them to do any good. I'm not even sure Dark Artisan is worth it, to be honest, but I'd like to use at least one coven unit.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Thu Feb 26 2015, 00:47

You must have a lot of Grey Knight players in your gaming group. One of the few armies Coven units are a bad matchup for due to Force and Str 10 NDKs.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Thu Feb 26 2015, 07:21

All this assumes there's no LOS bocking terrain to DS your DA behind and leap out!
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Thu Feb 26 2015, 11:18

@Timatron wrote:
All this assumes there's no LOS bocking terrain to DS your DA behind and leap out!

I think the only LoS blocking terrain we have is pretty big. If I deep-struck the DA behind it, I don't think I'd be able to get around it and assault him in a single turn. So, he'd still have a turn to shoot it. And, that's assuming his Centurions are standing right next to said terrain.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Thu Feb 26 2015, 16:11

Getting your enemy to stand where you want them is part of the fun!
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Thu Feb 26 2015, 17:03

From another thread, I read a battler report in which he said basically the same thing everyone is saying. It doesn't kill much because people avoid it and DA is slow, but on the other hand, it tanks a great deal of damage and provides map control/area denial. I think as long as you're using it this way and build the rest of your army around it, it is a great tool at what it does. I think if you want a big expensive killer that murders armies, that's not what they're for.

In the previously mentioned Battle Report, he said that not having the WWP on it meant that the rest of the army wasn't taking the damage he was, so I agree that if they are your Warlord Tarpit, then just run them up slowly and have them tank damage for your army. I could see them as a non-warlord unit though and be WWP'ed in choke points or to hold objectives that are hard to get at. Either way, aiming them at the really tough stuff seems to be the way to go.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Fri Feb 27 2015, 12:02

Agreed, it serves a great pupose as an anvil in conjunction with a Grrotesquerie hammer!
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: Using a Dark Artisan Warlord Bunker   Fri Feb 27 2015, 23:18

Well, I think given the tiny amount of anvil's the book already has, this makes it even more useful in that role (But even as one of the few anvils, I can tell that the offensive nature of the army makes people want even the anvil to hit like a hammer lol).
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