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 DE vs the Decurion

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Wolfsark
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Sat Feb 21 2015, 20:30

@Timatron wrote:
So, so far the number one dangers are Canoptek Harvest and Tomblades? I assume we can safely add Annhialation barges to that list?

The main dangers of the list are the Wraiths within the Canoptek Harvest formation and the troops blobs of necron warriors.

The wraiths are tough to kill (even tougher with the formation) and they can move straight at you and into assault where they will tear up almost anything we have.

The blobs of necron warriors sit on objectives and soak wounds like champions (especially if the HQ is with them).  With gauss they can wound pretty much anything you present to them.  

The Tomb Blades aren't the biggest threat but they will just sneak up on you while you are distracted with other things.  They are tough to deal with before they get in range because they work so well with cover and terrain.  I guess blasts would work but ideally you would want to place blasts on the warrior blobs.

Bottom line.  Necrons are very strong now.  Stronger than most people expected and much of their newfound strength comes from models that we weren't used to seeing previously.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Sun Feb 22 2015, 08:32

Thanks for the bat rep mush.

What it taught me is that assault is the answer... but, more accurately, multi-assaulting scarabs and as many other units as possible is the answer.

Even the lowly decurion cron warrior is really tough for grots to kill in assault especially with a lord popping an orb.

By putting the attacks on the scarabs (with the weakest toughness and save) a big grot unit gets the wounds it needs to make the other units flee and then run them down.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Sun Feb 22 2015, 09:16

@Painjunky wrote:
Thanks for the bat rep mush.

What it taught me is that assault is the answer... but, more accurately, multi-assaulting scarabs and as many other units as possible is the answer.

Even the lowly decurion cron warrior is really tough for grots to kill in assault especially with a lord popping an orb.

By putting the attacks on the scarabs (with the weakest toughness and save) a big grot unit gets the wounds it needs to make the other units flee and then run them down.

Just keep in mind that the scarabs need to be entirely wiped out before you can sweep (unless you link combats as well as multi-charge), still near a board edge it's all the same. Also the same approach can be applied to warriors as they are squishier then say immortals or lichguard. In short get the wounds on the weaker models, and don't forget the -1LD from the coven formation (or -2LD from the armour of misery).

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Sun Feb 22 2015, 10:23

All good points. Thanx for the insight mush.

Did you make that list purely for Decurion crons?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Sun Feb 22 2015, 13:15

@Painjunky wrote:
Did you make that list purely for Decurion crons?

No, its my new DE army (still being built and painted). I wanted something elite with no transports. I also don't care much for shooting so assault heavy was another requirement of the list. Of course this is the first version of the list so its by no means concrete yet. That being said I'm having an absolute blast playing it.

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Mon Feb 23 2015, 09:27

@Painjunky wrote:
I usually go second if I can, I reserve 3/4 of my list. I like to see how my opponent deploys, where he moves and what he intends to do before I fly on (with the help of reserve manipulation) and rip up his weakest flank and roll up his line.

This way I have the initiative and momentum, he is reacting to my moves and I have the last turn. This tactic has worked very well for me.

Now vs a 2000pt Decurion with its super tough and shooty phalanx (40-50+ warriors and immortals, ghost arcs, destroyers, triarchs). Its super tough and fast and shooty and fighty vanguard (spyder, scarabs, wraiths, flayed ones, tomb blades and praetorians) is this still a good idea?

My question is should I deploy everything and go for first turn to pack in as much shooting as possible against this or should I stick with what I know?

Against the Decurion, I would suggest that you should just be as blunt as them and just start killing. Reserving (save that of the razorwing and WWP Archon with trueborns or equivalents) are not the wisest thing to do, as it only give them a chance to come to their most effective range. Whenever possible do your best to take down a significant amount of them.

Their fastest and most deadly units should be your first priority such as Wraiths, Destroyers and Tomb Blades. After that units such as the Ghost Ark, triarch and the Annihilation Barge should be next as they help boost the troops. Whenever a Necron warrior squad is exposed, units such as Razorwing Jetfighters can and will cause enough casualties from amongst their ranks to allow for your venoms or Kabalites to finish them off. If there are any assault units in your army, throw them into the remnants and kill them off or tie them for Necron Warrior Gauss are not to be underestimated.

In general the Necron-DE matchup is one of our better matchups provided you methodically target units that can contest our supremacy. Whenever possible, do your best to neuter the army's speed as they can be just as quick as our army if left unattended.Also make sure that the objectives are really spread out so that none of his units could attempt to get objectives easily.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Mon Feb 23 2015, 13:17

Thanx for the detailed advice everyone!
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Fri Feb 27 2015, 18:39

I'm not incredibly convinced assault is THE answer, but it is AN answer.

The list that MK put out is very good vs. particular lists, but its lack of mobility and dependency on CC does not fit my particular playstyle.  I prefer to shoot, shoot a lot, and shoot very hard.

This is done in a relatively big way, in the form of Eldar allies, double CAD, and having a Lynx in the army.

Example:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/02/de-double-cad-lynx.html

Pure DE shooting vs. the Decurion is mathematically a waste of time, even with Razorwings dropping multiple pie plates. Lances only reduce the save to 5+, which is still a pretty sizable chunk of his army. It bothers me greatly why the GW design team thinks a flat 4+ better than FNP roll with re-roll 1s from Reclaimation Legion is good for gameplay.
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Fri Feb 27 2015, 22:46

For a long time now, I haven't been concerned with why the design team thinks certain things aren't a bad idea because they're so good, but why they think it's a good idea to make certain things so bad.

Strong rules means you sell the mini's to people that already like them.  Bad rules means you're only selling to people that already love the mini's, but mostly, they'll just sit on the shelf.  It would make logical sense since you've already paid to have the specific mini's cast, that you want them to be super overpowered in order to be sure you're getting all the people that are already inclined to buy them.  A good example is Mandrakes, so many people would buy them if they were as good as half of the Necron units in this thread.

Anyway, back on topic.  There's not always a really good specific answer to solve problems like "how do I deal with this" when the unit is extremely good, regardless of what it faces.  So, I'll just say that it sometimes helps to remember basic strategic principles like focus firing on the things that you can kill (the smallest or least robust units), instead of focusing a little bit of everything across the board.  As has been said, it won't accomplish anything if you spread your focus across the entire army.  So remember to focus fire, and also, fight on your terms in sections so that you're bullying him instead of him bullying you.  What I mean is fight part of his army with a whole section of yours, instead of fighting each section of his with one section of yours.  He has the advantage in toughness, one on one firepower, melee capability, etc.  So don't make it a fair fight by WWPing all over the place or spreading your poison out to his whole army.

Mushkilla not only demonstrated this, but did it very well with his batrep.  He focused the objectives so that he was ganging up all of his melee strength into a couple portions of the enemy at once.  This could be done with shooting too, although this will be more difficult than melee since the shooting units aren't as survivable as the melee ones like Grots.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Fri Feb 27 2015, 23:55

@HERO wrote:
I'm not incredibly convinced assault is THE answer, but it is AN answer.

The list that MK put out is very good vs. particular lists, but its lack of mobility and dependency on CC does not fit my particular playstyle.  I prefer to shoot, shoot a lot, and shoot very hard.

Yeah, my list is pretty extreme. Not to mention it's a slow list with no shooting is also pretty unorthodox. I need to get a load more games in with it and find out what it can/can't handle.

It will be interesting to see how it plays against serpent spam.

In regards to necrons, when you can't kill stuff fall back on playing the mission would be my advice.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the Decurion   Fri Mar 06 2015, 14:03

@Mushkilla wrote:
In regards to necrons, when you can't kill stuff fall back on playing the mission would be my advice.

Yep that's about all you can do.

Finally got in a game against Decurion and for the first 3 turns I out ranged him and focused 2000pts worth of evil DE shooting into his fast units and achieved very little. pale affraid

After recovering from a brief but painful cardiac arrest I changed tactics and used my entire army as an expendable obj grabbing/denying meat shield regardless of casualties.

I lost 12 to 15 turn 7 (If the game had ended turn 5 I would have won by 1 pt) but I was happy as it could have been much worse.

Next game I know what to do. Might even WWP 10 grots into his dep zone to keep him busy.Smile
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