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 Reaper vs. Ravager

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 11:52

I recently took a look at the profile of Forge World's Reaper, and it appears to completely outclass the Ravager:

- same AV; 11 11 10
- preequipped with Enhanced Aethersails
- can still take a Flickerfield
- armed with what is pretty much a Haywire Prism Cannon; S5 AP4 pinning pieplate or S7 AP3 D3-hit haywire that instakills non-vehicles on wound rolls of 6.
Seriously, that is one of the most unholy weapons I've seen on a non-titan so far! Shocked

Aside from the rules being not quite official, does anyone of you see a reason to take a Ravager instead?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 11:58

It's slightly more expensive and you're always at the mercy of the dice gods when you have a single weapon. I've used it quite a lot and you'd be amazed the amount of 1's and 2's that crop up! Sad Sad

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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 12:02

I like it. It serves a similar purpose to a Fire Prism. If you can give it at least partial cover to avoid jink saves, and take them in multiples they could be really fantastic. Easy enough to convert from a standard Raider as well.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 19:24

Not a fan of it. One and done guns dont do it for me. I know a lot of people when they first see the Reaper think it shoots a Beam or a line, but sadly they are mistaken. Had to break this news to a guy I played this past weekend at a GT. He was not happy.

But if the gun hits, it is pretty good, but think in a normal game it will do almost nothing 2/5 or 6 turns of the game. Dont like those odds.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 21:07

The pinning aspect is an interesting one. Perhaps ally in Harlequins and use the armor for a solid -4 LD, and use 3 reapers to have a critical unit take multiple pinning tests a turn.

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 21:57

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
But if the gun hits, it is pretty good, but think in a normal game it will do almost nothing 2/5 or 6 turns of the game.  Dont like those odds.

That's seems like a very pessimistic outlook. Why do think it wouldn't do anything all game?
Considering the Storm Vortex Projector can kill all sorts of things, it should never be short on targets.
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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Wed Feb 18 2015, 23:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
It's slightly more expensive and you're always at the mercy of the dice gods when you have a single weapon. I've used it quite a lot and you'd be amazed the amount of 1's and 2's that crop up! Sad Sad

Haha, sounds like my luck with lances in general. I think the reaper has good potential overall, would love to see some batreps with it.

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 00:02

I have two of them and used them regularly, they either do loads or absolutely nothing and miss! But throw in a farseer to make them twin linked and they become alot more reliable.
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 01:09

If you are taking it instead of a Ravager, you are having it there to kill tanks. It will miss, and when it does it is a useless 135 point vehicle. Sure claim an objective for Maelstorm, but we have other vehicles that do it just fine.

The large blast is nice, but at Str. 5 not the best. If you want it for the large blast there are plenty of things that do it better than the Reaper.

Not a fan of it with it only the one gun. Other things for cheaper do it better I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 08:39

I have yet to field mine, as it's still on order, but I've heard that it's a respectable alternative to a Ravager in the new Codex, since Ravagers got more expensive. Additionally, despite being a 'one and done' type model, having only one gun means that you can move at Cruising speed and still fire it at full BS - unlike a Ravager, which will have to snap-shoot a lance (and therefore 1/3 of it's damage output) if it moves more than 6". In that sense, I like the idea that I have a little bit more mobility without sacrificing firepower.

Statisically, the Ravager and the Reaper have the same chance of missing, so in the long run I think they put out comparable damage. It's definitely more noticeable than on a Ravager though, where even if you miss two shots you still get to feel like it did something that turn.

Also of note is the fact that you can buy TGLs on it for mere 5 pts. Much like buying a storm bolter on a SoB Exorcist, that immediately gives you a 50% chance of not caring about a weapon destroyed result, which lessens the hurt of being a one-weapon model. Not to mention that being an older model, all of the Wargear has been updated but the prices have not - meaning that while Night Shields will cost you 15 pts on a Ravager (If I recall correctly), they cost a measly 5 pts. on the Reaper. It also comes with Aethersails for free (something I would never pay for on a Ravager), if you /really/ need to snag that late-game objective

What wins me over is the flexibility of the Reaper. You have the single-shot vehicle-wrecker for some tremendously good anti-tank, having the potential to do 4 hits in a single turn, 3 of them being haywire - but you also have the choice of putting out a lot of S5 hits that also come with pinning, which is great for softening up a target for assault.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 09:30

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
If you are taking it instead of a Ravager, you are having it there to kill tanks.  It will miss, and when it does it is a useless 135 point vehicle.

You're saying that as if it had BS2. I've never rolled so bad that I missed 5-6 turns in a row on BS4.
I get that three shots are more likely to hit than one. I would never put a Haywire Blaster on a single Talos, for example. But on the other hand, it doesn't stop anyone from putting one-shot lances instead of three-shot Dissies on Raiders either.

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
The large blast is nice, but at Str. 5 not the best.  If you want it for the large blast there are plenty of things that do it better than the Reaper.

It's not so much the damage, but rather the pinning effect that makes it interesting for me to use against infantry. As SweaterKittens pointed out, pinning is the best friend of our assault units, because pinned enemies can't overwatch and don't strike first if they are in cover. And the Reaper has the only pinning weapon DE can get without allies!


@SweaterKittens wrote:
You have the single-shot vehicle-wrecker for some tremendously good anti-tank, having the potential to do 4 hits in a single turn, 3 of them being haywire

With the current rules, Haywire doesn't work like that anymore. So the beam gets "only" D3 haywire hits against vehicles and a single S7 AP3 hit against non-vehicles.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 09:32

Quote :
You're saying that as if it had BS2. I've never rolled so bad that I missed 5-6 turns in a row on BS4
That's not what he wrote, though Smile
He said that in 5-6 turns, it will miss 2 shots on average.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 09:45

@Sigmaril wrote:
That's not what he wrote, though Smile
He said that in 5-6 turns, it will miss 2 shots on average.

That sounds more likely.
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Manners_Cat
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 16:37

I like it in theory and am looking to run one alongside ravagers the same way I run haywire scourges. Placing all your hopes in the lap of any one thing is a quick route to disappointment, after all.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Thu Feb 19 2015, 22:31

Thanks Sig for pointing out what I said. Definitely not BS 2, but one and done weapon platforms for me just dont do it, plain and simple. The Pinning is nice, but not the best as most units you really want pinned are immune, have LD 9-10, or wont matter when you charge.

Again, if it works for you go right ahead and take it. Not a terrible option, but not the best in my opinion. I would prefer the Ravager, and I still dont even take those anymore with the new book.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Fri Feb 20 2015, 00:50

@Manners_Cat wrote:
I like it in theory and am looking to run one alongside ravagers the same way I run haywire scourges. Placing all your hopes in the lap of any one thing is a quick route to disappointment, after all.

I'm with Manners_Cat on this one. Despite the fact that they have the same chance to hit, a Ravager statistically will miss 1/3 Lances every turn, meaning every turn it's likely to do something. The Reaper will do mad deeps, but 1 out of every 3 turns it'll statistically be doing nothing. If you were running a single AT unit, I'd go with the Ravager, but in a big game where I'm running 2-3 dedicated AT units, I'd probably go with a mix of the two.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Fri Feb 20 2015, 07:16

I like both of them.
But i use Reaper less times, because almost every tornament organisators bann IA Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Fri Feb 20 2015, 13:51

Saying that 2 of the Ravager's shots will hit (assuming you plan to fire 3 all turn, moving only 6") and rating that "Better!" because something hit is a bit of a fallacy.

There's still the chance that those shots go on to do nothing appreciable. To get an accurate view, you have to take the overall chances, from hitting to wounding, to actually compare the weapons.

Granted, the single-shot is more likely to show outliers, but that's not accurate to it's true "% to cause damage".

All that said, I am definitely going to have to try these guys out.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Fri Feb 20 2015, 14:01

@jbwms713 wrote:
Saying that 2 of the Ravager's shots will hit (assuming you plan to fire 3 all turn, moving only 6") and rating that "Better!" because something hit is a bit of a fallacy.

There's still the chance that those shots go on to do nothing appreciable.  To get an accurate view, you have to take the overall chances, from hitting to wounding, to actually compare the weapons.

Granted, the single-shot is more likely to show outliers, but that's not accurate to it's true "% to cause damage".

All that said, I am definitely going to have to try these guys out.

Let me first say I'm completely in agreement with you. The fact that it may not do something on a turn is not indicative to it's overall effectiveness. That being said....

Statistically, you're likely to do something with your ravagers every turn. Shooting at AV 12 with 3 lances, 1 misses, and one gets a glance/pen. The Reaper has a 1/3 chance of straight missing (this is assuming you're using the beam firing mode, not the template). So while their hit/miss stat is equivalent, the Ravager will do smaller bits of damage more consistently, while the Reaper will put out much more, but less consistently. I think that this is an important distinction to make, because sometimes you don't need much more. If that Land Raider has 1 HP left, I'd much rather have a greater chance of getting rid of that 1 HP than have a smaller chance of doing more damage (which would be wasted). Conversely, I might be deciding between targets, and if I open with the Reaper, it might just soften it up enough for my Dark Lance Raider to finish him off - and if it misses, I can focus my fire elsewhere, where the single Dark Lance will have an effect. Like I said, I don't think the fact that it will statistically do nothing 1/3 turns is indicative of it's overall effectiveness, but it is important to differentiate it from the Ravager which will do more consistent, albeit generally less, damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Fri Feb 20 2015, 21:08

In my experience the fragility of our vehicles doesn't lend itself to a war of attrition. Death by a thousand cuts is all well and good, but not when the other guy brings down the hammer.

A reaper may miss more overall but my ravagers rarely survive 5-6 turns so more damage at once imho is more effective for an army as glass as ours.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaper vs. Ravager   Sun Feb 22 2015, 22:51

@ sweaterkittens...

Entirely true. At that point you really have to consider what the army as a whole will be able to do. Basically, over three turns, both units are likely to do about three HP of damage. The ravager one at a time, the reaper in clumps.

Really both have their benefits... I mainly want to try out the reaper because it's a new shiny (to me).
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