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 When and how would you use a combat Archon

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 00:50

Haha, I don't know if I should be laughing or crying xD

I do agree with the master crafted weapons thing. Especially since they made special mention of that female archon who crafts such perfect weapons and everyone falls in love with the weapon when they see her insignia on it. You'd have thought we'd get one of her weapons as a relic - instead we get... The Djinn Blade....

Hey at least we have a master crafted 2+ poisoned pistol...
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 00:53

@Caldria wrote:

Hey at least we have a master crafted 2+ poisoned pistol...
Hey, yeah!

Oh wait. It's AP5.
If it was S1, AP5, MC, Poison 2+, soul leech in combat as well... THEN i'd consider it gunslinger'd with a blast pistol.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 01:00

My archon carries a wwp and sometimes haywire nades or blaster. Portal in an actual good unit take a pot shot or 2 and stay the hell out of the way. That's all he's good for.
Succubus with glaive is the least terrible combat hq choice we have. Sad

Did we ever get any clear response from gw about running the court without archon or is that too much to ask for?
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 01:14

The succubus is a pretty great combat HQ, in that she does her job, and is well priced for what she does. But she is no beatstick, and as such I find that I only ever field her in addition to another HQ like a haemy or blaster archon.

The agoniser, shadowfield archon is actually not bad at combat. He obviously isnt good against 2+ guys. But he is great against what he's meant to be used against, the problem is that the succubus with archite glaive is 95 points... that's a great price. Lets add on the armour of misery since we're added the shadowfield on the archon - 110 points is still great. Though normally I'd just hide her with some Grots and not take the armour on her.

The archon with shadowfield and agoniser is 120, lower weapon skill, lower initative, fewer attacks and cant touch 2+ save models. He does have 2 advantages over her - 2++ and can wound anything on a 4+ or better if the target is lower toughness. The Succubus can't harm T7+ (or T8+ with furious charge) But then, our army has plenty ways to deal with MCs.

I guess it just depends on what you want your combat HQ to be going after most of the time, If you dont see many 2+ models in your meta, the archon will do fine, not amazingly but will do fine.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 01:47

@Caldria & @Painjunky
Thanks dudes.  As much as it still pains me, agoniser, wwp, hwg, shadowfield, blaster is what i'll have to stick with. A shooty guy who can survive combat if he must. It seems political supremacy just means he can have a shadowfield and a huskblade. yay.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 09:41

Archon: Agoniser, Blast pistol, Shadowfield, Webway Portal.

Not a disappointment.

Gets my heat lance scourges exactly where I want them, adds an extra shot into vehicle rear armour as S8. Last night helped to take down wraithguard unit after baiting them out of their wave serpent.

Get over the fact that he's not going to walk over everything in combat, that's not what he's designed for.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 10:13

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Archon: Agoniser, Blast pistol, Shadowfield, Webway Portal.

Not a disappointment.

Gets my heat lance scourges exactly where I want them, adds an extra shot into vehicle rear armour as S8. Last night helped to take down wraithguard unit after baiting them out of their wave serpent.

Get over the fact that he's not going to walk over everything in combat, that's not what he's designed for.

But at a cost of what, 175 points (?) I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be capable of dealing with more than IG Sergeants in close combat.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 11:19

@Count Adhemar wrote:
But at a cost of what, 175 points (?) I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be capable of dealing with more than IG Sergeants in close combat.

Yeah, but for that cost, I'm getting far more than just the ability to deal with those models in combat, in fact the combat element of his cost is 25pts. If I didn't want him in combat I'd take exactly the same loadout minus the agoniser. He's there to deliver and protect my heat lance scourges, and because i have to have an HQ (I don't like the Lhamaean option).

I've said it before elsewhere and I'll say it again, regardless of the background justification or lack of for his equipment options, the Succubus is very clearly designed to be our character that's capable of dealing with all kinds of armour in combat, the Archon is designed to be capable of holding his own against most things, and the Haemonculus is designed to make everything else tougher.

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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 11:42

My Archon with Agoniser, Blaster, Shadowfield, Webway Portal has done absolute work. I find that when you're deepstriking the big man behind enemy lines the best place after the initial onslaught of shooting is in CC. I've run him the exact same way 15+ times since the new book came out and he's done great.

I run mine with Wraithguard, but Grotesques still give him the toughness boost and I've found the Shadowfield almost always weathers the first hail of fire after deepstriking. Maybe its a meta thing but my opponents backfields are usually swamped with infantry hiding from the rest of my army, the Archon and his boys go in there and root them out of their holes after blowing up a key mechanized target.

Is he end all be all of combat? No way. But he can mop the floor of infantry and monstrous creatures with 3+ save hiding in the backfield, take guys off objectives and cause total chaos in the opponents deployment zone.

To me having the Archon rocking in close combat does more than just kill units, it pins you're opponent back, disrupts his lines, pulls units out of the movement and shooting phase and in all the chaos it allows the rest of my army to go full throttle after what is usually a bevvy of suddenly isolated units.

I would honestly give it a try if you haven't already. If the rest of your army is nice and streamlined the CC Archon (with blaster/blast pistol) is a joy to run and mine almost always racks up a huge kill total.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 12:32

@nexs wrote:

Hey, yeah!

Oh wait. It's AP5.
If it was S1, AP5, MC, Poison 2+, soul leech in combat as well... THEN i'd consider it gunslinger'd with a blast pistol.

Honestly, my problem with a gunslinger lies more in the pathetic range of the blast pistol. I mean, Range is literally all Darklight weapons have over meltas... and the Blast Pistol doesn't even get that. scratch  

Though, being able to use the Parasite's Kiss in combat (retaining its abilities) would make me a happy man.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 13:40

Just noticed almost none of you guys have mentioned soul trap. Do you think it's not worthy to pay 10 additional points to prevent enemy sergeants from participating in fights? For example: if they don't fight, enemy unit will probably make about one less wound, will have 1 less Ld (in average) and have good chances of being forced to make sweeping advance check. Ofc it will increase chances of being left in the open for enemy shooting though...

Also another thing: if u are not relying on any of your HQs too much and don't expect them to be those beatsticks, why wouldn't u take Animus Vitae to have like 40% chance of increasing whole army capability?
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 14:02

Animus Vitae...you can get it, if you have points. Just a plus.

SoulTrap...never liked. "I challenge you!" -"refuse" -"oh..."
Think about it: why I have to accept a deadly challenge for me? If I accept, I accept with one Characther who can squash your Archon. Never with a Sergeant.
And I don't see equiped sergeants without already a good joined PI in the same unit :-/
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 14:06

@Stolensoul wrote:
Just noticed almost none of you guys have mentioned soul trap. Do you think it's not worthy to pay 10 additional points to prevent enemy sergeants from participating in fights?

Does it really change anything though?

I mean, if you're attacking a shooty squad, then the sergeant usually isn't going to do much in combat anyway. With or without the soul trap, I can take them out of the fight by challenging (either killing them or making them refuse).

The thing is, those challenges don't really concern me. The ones that concern me are the ones issued by one of the (many) characters who can beat an Archon in melee. And, the Soul Trap doesn't do a damn thing in those.

I like the fluff, but it just seems like a Win More item.

@Stolensoul wrote:
Also another thing: if u are not relying on any of your HQs too much and don't expect them to be those beatsticks, why wouldn't u take Animus Vitae to have like 40% chance of increasing whole army capability?

Well, if I'm not building a beatstick HQ, then I don't generally want my HQ within 8" of the enemy. That distance seems reserved almost exclusively for beatsticks.

Also, I don't actually find pfp useful for a lot of my units. Once they have FNP (5+), the table really has nothing left to offer. And, with shooty units, I'd go so far as to say that Fearless can often be a downside.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 14:47

If I absolutely HAD to run a combat archon, I'd use agoniser/shadowfield and keep it dead cheap. Stick him with a unit of grotesques, and toss them around that way. Personally though, I would rather have my archite glaive succubus with incubi.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 16:48

Quote :
I mean, if you're attacking a shooty squad, then the sergeant usually isn't going to do much in combat anyway. With or without the soul trap, I can take them out of the fight by challenging (either killing them or making them refuse).
Well, u could get some free STR buff from Chaos Champions. Though to make a really good use of it u should probably run Huskblade, which, with any luck, could be a real threat to any non-EW character even with 2+ save, but with last FAQ it doesn't seem to snowball enough... Well, w/e. Just trying to find something positive in this melee disaster....
Quote :
Also, I don't actually find pfp useful for a lot of my units. Once they have FNP (5+), the table really has nothing left to offer.
You could probably find some use if u run it with another Coven's detachment.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 17:02

@Trystis wrote:
I have been unhappy with my CC archon lately, and have been thinking about using a succumbs instead. Do you by the armor if misery also or just the glaive?
I usually just run the Glaive as her purpose is to provide the Grots with AP2 - nothing more, nothing less.

Specifically if I was running the Grot formation *and* had points to burn, I might go for the Armor to pair up with the Coven leadership donk. But I really don't consider the Armor a 'must have' item for her.

@nexs wrote:
My issue with the succubus is that while she access to better weapons, she doesn't have access to the good gear (ie: 2+ invuln, soul trap, for combat juiciness). 3 Incubi have more attacks and the same wounds for less cost than her.

How do you run the grotesquerie?
I agree, 3 Incubi cost a bit less for more non-grenade attacks.
That said, Incubi aren't that good at killing most stuff, while the Succubus can join with Grots (who are good at killing stuff) and can become T5, and also boost Grots against about the only hing that slows them down (high armor saves) all for a fairly bargain basement cost of under 100 points.

I usually run my Grotesquerie as 2x 4 man Grots squads w. Abber w. Scissorhands in Raiders w. Haem w. Sump in one and Succubus w. Glaive in the other.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 17:21

@Stolensoul wrote:
Well, u could get some free STR buff from Chaos Champions.

Right until you run into a Chaos Lord. tongue

@Stolensoul wrote:

You could probably find some use if u run it with another Coven's detachment.

Not really.

If I use Coven units, then I'm generally using:
- Fleshcorps
- DA
- Grotesquerie

The first two benefit very little from pfp. I might use it on a Succubus, if I was using a Grotesquerie, but I think I'd prefer the Helm of Spite to give them a little protection from Force weapons and other psychic stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Sun Feb 15 2015, 23:57

@Thor665 wrote:

I agree, 3 Incubi cost a bit less for more non-grenade attacks.
That said, Incubi aren't that good at killing most stuff, while the Succubus can join with Grots (who are good at killing stuff) and can become T5, and also boost Grots against about the only hing that slows them down (high armor saves) all for a fairly bargain basement cost of under 100 points.

I usually run my Grotesquerie as 2x 4 man Grots squads w. Abber w. Scissorhands in Raiders w. Haem w. Sump in one and Succubus w. Glaive in the other.
I don't have access to the haemy covens book. But from what i've ready, there are some neat upgrades for the foul fellows.
Is the extra strength of the grot what does it for you(in regards to killing power)? In my early stages of 40k learning curve, it's the AP value that leads to killing power. With furious charge, the incubi have S5, but charging into ruins, you pretty much need a full squad of 10 to soak up the hits before they strike Sad
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Mon Feb 16 2015, 10:29

Lately I've been using Archon with HB, AoM and Haywire. Still cheap with grots but able to make some wounds. Excelent againts Scarabs that are rapidly coming more numerous and popular.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Mon Feb 16 2015, 19:11

@nexs wrote:
I don't have access to the haemy covens book. But from what i've ready, there are some neat upgrades for the foul fellows.
Is the extra strength of the grot what does it for you(in regards to killing power)? In my early stages of 40k learning curve, it's the AP value that leads to killing power. With furious charge, the incubi have S5, but charging into ruins, you pretty much need a full squad of 10 to soak up the hits before they strike Sad
Strength and AP are simply aspects of the potentiality of killing power.
Number of attacks, weapon skill, initiative, durability, and other miscellaneous aspects also affect it.

Just, to use your Incubi example;

A Grot costs 35 and an Incubi costs 20.

Presuming a rampage roll of 2, a Grot has 7 attacks on the charge, Str 5, Poison 4+.
An Incubi has 3 attacks on the charge, Str 4, AP2

vs. MEQ that means the Incubi will generally cause 1 dead Marine while the Grot will cause 1.03 dead Marines. So, on a point for point situation - the Grot is worse than the Incubi at killing Marines.

That said, vs. GEQ the Incubi kills 1.33 and the Grot bags 2.96, making it more valuable.

The numbers also shift as te toughness of the target increases, or as invulnerable saves come into effect. Also, and this gets complicated mathwise, the Grots high end performance chances are significantly better than the Incubi's because they roll more dice so potential of damage inflicted is always greater.

Also, as noted by you, there is the whole charging through cover thing. So, if the enemy gets to swing first (as they will be able to do basically 100% of the time they are in cover) then you also need to look at kill potential.

Incubi and Grots will actually be wounded in roughly equal numbers by targets they are attacking (barring AP3 weaponry, which tilts the numbers solidly in the Grots favor) however, 3 wounds are needed on Grots to prevent them from swinging, where only 1 drops an Incubi. So for every wound an Incubi unit takes they are losing 20 points worth of value, for the Grots they lose nothing until 3 wounds. So, by the time the Grots lose 35 points worth of value (and the equivalent of what 1 Incubi can do to MEQ, more or less) the Incubi have lost 3-5 Incubi and 60-100 points of value.

So, in a theoretical world where there are 10 Marines with a flamer and missile launcher in cover, sitting on an objective that I want to possess - if I assault in with 8 Incubi (160 points) or 4 Grots w. Abber w. Scissor (160 points) I can expect the following (I don't give the Incubi FNP and don't give the Grots cover - which seems a fair concept, feel free to work in 6+ or 5+ FNP if you think this is happening on later rounds. I usually assault Turn 1-2 though, myself);

Grots - .59 wounds from bolters, .09 wounds from missile, .44 wounds from flamer, 1.11 wounds from stabbing = 2.23 wounds to my Grots. Even barring wound allocation trickery, my entire Grot unit is still standing.

I now do .58 rends, .96 from Abberation, 1.03 from 3x Grots = 4.63 dead Marines.

Incubi - .59 wounds from bolters, .13 wounds from missile, .44 wounds from flamer, 1.11 wounds from stabbing = 2.27 dead Incubi.

Incubi now do 1 dead Marine each = 5-6 dead Marines.

So, as you can see, both units are basically going to accomplish their goal - but, at the end of the day, the Grots will lose less bodies and maintain their overall combat efficiency.

Then also pay attention that this is against, literally, the best possible target for the Incubi, and that the Grots just kind of get better against anything else in the game, as they are better against weaker opponents, where the Incubi's AP doesn't help as much, and are better against tougher opponents, where their poison is more useful to inflict wounds than the Incubi's Str 4.

So how much better does the AP2 really serve them there? Yeah, you got a few more kills, but your unit got chewed up in the process. You lost 40 points worth of models in order to gain about one more kill than the Grots did.

That's why AP doesn't matter as much when you're tough and can unleash a sickening number of attacks - because quantity of swings and durability of the combat unit also matter quite a bit in the concept of assault units.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Mon Feb 16 2015, 21:46

@Thor665
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
A few queries on this..
Firstly, You said you're not giving the grots cover. How would they get cover, other than from the overwatch (in which case, the archon's shadowfield should be tanking the hits)?

It's very strange to see you talk about grotesque attacks in the same way i talk about splinter cannons. The old "Death By Papercuts" approach is not something I'd even considered for the grots!

It seems that the incubi are a very niche article, in that they are fantastic at taking down those small bodycount units of high armour stuff. The klaivex could also be used as an IC assassination model. But against the general populous of the 40k empire, grots do the trick!

It looks like i have my next sculpting project decided for me..
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Tue Feb 17 2015, 15:20

I tend to field my combat Archon with an Agoniser, a Shadowfield and a Soul-trap ad just run with it. It is a flexible CC guy but he does have his tough matchups, and for that I tend to bully the squads that can offer very little resistance to it. The Huskblade is a little bit too much to put on the model but sometimes I do equip the huskblade on the archon along with the other aforementioned gear for nonsense.

Nonetheless, these days I only field this archon for the fun of it for my default Archon in most competitive builds is what I call the 'coward's tribute' option; A Blaster and a Webway portal along with a Haywire grenade when points allow me. Sometimes if my list needs venoms but I can't spare certain slots  to take Venoms I will just buy a Venom for the Archon and use it as a way to get a Venom without spending too much resources.

His purpose is simple; come in from the skies with my blasterborns, shoot the living hell of anything I want dead and then leave them to their own devices after that. He does not take to the battlefield in glorious close combat and will always let his other minions die first, and he is a tribute that most people will assume that he is my warlord while in actual fact that honor belongs to a sybarite somewhere in the army.

In many ways I see my fun option as how I envisioned my Archon to be, but in actual fact the blaster WWP caddy is the main and most viable way to field him.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Wed Feb 18 2015, 22:13

"The coward's tribute"? Haha I like it.
I accidentally got the new archon kit and decided to make him the leader of my second detatchment (knowing that each kabal has only archon, he needs to be a different detachment to the rest of my army), with a parasite's kiss and huskblade/shadowfield/soul trap combo, he will spend his time with his grotesque buddes.
Purely for funsies. I know very well how uncompetitive the build is, but i want to see how long it takes for him to die haha
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Wed Feb 18 2015, 22:20

@nexs wrote:
I accidentally got the new archon kit

How did that happen? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Wed Feb 18 2015, 22:25

100% accidental. I accidentally asked my friend to pick it up when he was at the store and told him i'd give him the the dollarydoos on payday.
It's 100% not my fault.

Edit: He's nearly painted already. Keep an eye on my painting log (shameless plog promotion)


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