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nexs
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PostSubject: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 00:58

Hi everyone,
As the title suggests, how would you kit out and deploy a combat Archon?

I've been considering (from looking at other lists and batreps) the grotesquerie formation and dropping a pistol/agoniser/soultrap archon in with one unit. But I'm not sure and was hoping for some ideas.

Of course, i'd have to get some grots, or build some from bits and greenstuff, but would like to know whether it's worth it before i spend my time and dollarydoos.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 04:06

Generally every time I consider making a combat Archon I end up fielding a Succubus w. Glaive - who is basically far superior in combat for a solid discount. I struggle to see the point of the Archon in an assault role nowadays, frankly.

He's really more just a tank for wounds via Shaodwfield or a shooty guy.

The Grotesquirie is awesome though.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 04:47

@Thor665 wrote:
Generally every time I consider making a combat Archon I end up fielding a Succubus w. Glaive - who is basically far superior in combat for a solid discount. I struggle to see the point of the Archon in an assault role nowadays, frankly.

He's really more just a tank for wounds via Shaodwfield or a shooty guy.

The Grotesquirie is awesome though.

I have been unhappy with my CC archon lately, and have been thinking about using a succumbs instead. Do you by the armor if misery also or just the glaive?
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 04:48

My issue with the succubus is that while she access to better weapons, she doesn't have access to the good gear (ie: 2+ invuln, soul trap, for combat juiciness). 3 Incubi have more attacks and the same wounds for less cost than her.

How do you run the grotesquerie?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 08:30

I run the Succubus in a unit of Grotesques and i give her the glaive and the armour of misery.

She's been hit and miss, some games she's killed everything I've sent them against and the grots haven't had anything to hit (which upsets them), other games she's wiffed all her attacks and had to be rescued by the grots (which they find amusing).

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 11:53

I know its not points efficient but I run a hero-hammer Archon with Agonzier, Blaster, SF, and WWP. He comes in with standard Wraithguard buffing him to toughness 6, with a Soulshrive, Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask Autarch. He basically tanks wounds with the Shadowfield and then goes on a blitzkrieg in the backlines. I know people say he's not very good but mine has been an absolute champion. He's only died 2-3 times in the last 15 games and netted his points back almost every single time. The game I realized how good he was against Space Wolves where he blew up 2 Vindicators (3 other tanks with combined fire from his squad mates as well), and killed 15 plus Space Marines by himself in combat. My opponent conceded by turn 5-6 before the massacre could go any further.

It should be said that the rest of my army is so points efficient and frankly cohesive that it allows me to have fun with my 2 HQ choices. If its a luxury you can afford you should totally go for it they are a nightmare to deal with when they have a toughness buffing bodyguard unit and if you have a wingman like the Autarch who can help with reserves and go neck-and-neck with him in combat it is a great combination.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 11:57

The few times that I've run a Combat Archon he's really not been that impressive. These days he tends to just bring his WWP and remain on the Wave Serpent having sent all the Fire Dragons out to do the heavy lifting.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 12:41

I have the opposite experience. I use Archon with Husk blade (never agonizer) and armor of misery all the time. He is supported by grots from elite slot or Grotesquerie. The difference between LD9 and 10 is what matters the most. People around here use Telepathy quite a lot.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 15:46

I have a squad of 5 grots with 2 liquifiers I'd like to deep strike in. I've been using an Archon with Agonizer and Shadowfield for fear of a Wraithknight or other S10 problems. My thought was an Archon to tank wounds. Unfortunately, even with a 2++, the Archon doesn't seem durable. So I'm now down on the Archon and debating on a Succubus. A Wraithknight will still smash the succy...
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 16:00

A wraithknight will smash anything we bring against it in combat, except possibly the Dark Artisan, tanking wounds on the Cronos (and no, any sane Eldar player is not going to let you charge his precious wraithknight with that).

Similarly nothing below T6 is ever going to be durable against one in combat, unless it has eternal warrior.

Personally I wouldn't try to legislate for something like that, equip for combats you want to get into, not the ones you want to avoid, and if you see wraithknights, shoot the crap out of them with poison, and if that doesn't kill them, try a few darklight guns too, we're probably one of the armies best equipped to deal with them to be honest.

At least with lots of poison weapons (and ID ones too) we have the opportunity to make those nasty wraithknights disappear and their owners cry if they fail an armour save.

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 16:19

Uhm...no setting?

Testing new DE since it comes out, I have found all ours IC HQ choice as a "bag for equip and relics"
Archon, Succubus, Haemonculus...all of them are not some great fighters :-/
Too much expensive for what you really need in list, I consider these choices as Portal keeper/Elm keeper.

Expecially for the Grotesquerie, I found very good buy some Portals for both Grotesques units. One by the Haemonculus; the other getted from the Combined Detachment.
No other weapons.

I found worthless CC ability of ours IC, they aren't these great fighters. imho
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 19:44

@nexs wrote:
Hi everyone,
As the title suggests, how would you kit out and deploy a combat Archon?

I don't.

Frankly, I'd rather kit out a watermelon for melee than an Archon.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - AP3 is not useful. It's not that I never face Marines, but rather that I don't see the need for a dedicated MEQ-killer (who isn't even very efficient in said role), when I can just shoot them with poison from 36" away.

In contrast, virtually all the non-vehicle units that are a pain to deal with have something in common - a 2+ save.

Also, every time I see his weapon selection I want to cry:
- A Power Sword. So, despite having S3 and only getting one of the 4 power weapons (the least useful one, no less), we still get no point reduction. Outstanding.
- Huskblade. What is the target for this thing? Is there a 3+ save MC that we can't easily kill with poison? Maybe the Wraithknight? Well then I'll just send my Huskblade Archon to kill that Wraithknight and... oh.
- Agoniser. Why is this thing 25pts? Power Fists cost that much because they're S8 AP2 weapons. They wound virtually anything on 2s, can ID anything with T4 (or less) and can mash vehicles and MCs to a pulp. Why are we paying the same points for a weapon that needs 4s to wound, can barely scratch anything with a 2+ save and can't even tough AV10?
- Djin Blade. So, for the measly price of 2 power swords, you can get 2 additional attacks. They come with a downside, obviously. Because, otherwise, that many S3 attacks would just dominate the game. So, on a roll of 1, the Archon takes a wound with no saves allowed. Meaning his Shadowfield is immediately lost. So, by having the gall to actually use my weapon, I also have to risk losing what is basically my Archon's only defence (and 40pts of defence at that).

See, all I can think of when I look at the Archon's weapons is 'why?'. Why do I want to bring any of these, let alone the Archon himself? It's like trying to decide which gun you'll use to shoot yourself in the foot.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 20:13

It's a real shame as I lavished loads of attention on my archon and now can't find a sensible use for him as modelled. . Sigh
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 21:38

@The Shredder wrote:

I don't.

Frankly, I'd rather kit out a watermelon for melee than an Archon.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - AP3 is not useful. It's not that I never face Marines, but rather that I don't see the need for a dedicated MEQ-killer (who isn't even very efficient in said role), when I can just shoot them with poison from 36" away.

In contrast, virtually all the non-vehicle units that are a pain to deal with have something in common - a 2+ save.

Also, every time I see his weapon selection I want to cry:
- A Power Sword. So, despite having S3 and only getting one of the 4 power weapons (the least useful one, no less), we still get no point reduction. Outstanding.
- Huskblade. What is the target for this thing? Is there a 3+ save MC that we can't easily kill with poison? Maybe the Wraithknight? Well then I'll just send my Huskblade Archon to kill that Wraithknight and... oh.
- Agoniser. Why is this thing 25pts? Power Fists cost that much because they're S8 AP2 weapons. They wound virtually anything on 2s, can ID anything with T4 (or less) and can mash vehicles and MCs to a pulp. Why are we paying the same points for a weapon that needs 4s to wound, can barely scratch anything with a 2+ save and can't even tough AV10?
- Djin Blade. So, for the measly price of 2 power swords, you can get 2 additional attacks. They come with a downside, obviously. Because, otherwise, that many S3 attacks would just dominate the game. So, on a roll of 1, the Archon takes a wound with no saves allowed. Meaning his Shadowfield is immediately lost. So, by having the gall to actually use my weapon, I also have to risk losing what is basically my Archon's only defence (and 40pts of defence at that).

See, all I can think of when I look at the Archon's weapons is 'why?'. Why do I want to bring any of these, let alone the Archon himself? It's like trying to decide which gun you'll use to shoot yourself in the foot.

Heh Heh Heh. I like your satirical narrative.



I don't like Succubus or Haemonculus as a warlord. Not enough, anyway. Fluff-wise, the succubus and haemy are those that the Archon allows to come on his space raid for what ever they may give in return. While the menacing, maniacal Archon sits 18" away from enemies, shooting pot shots at terminators and the rear of vehicles, laughing stupidly as his str8 blaster beams roll 1's and 2's to pen.
Oh well. Looks like I'm going to cry myself to sleep for the next few weeks
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 21:52

I am also not happy with either of our If HQs so I started using the court...

But my cc Archon is only for friendly fluff games with agoniser and SF

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 21:55

usually just stick with the succubus with glaive and armour in a unit of grots.

But best use for the archon i find is blaster and WWP in a NS raider with Blasterborn

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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 22:43

@The Shredder wrote:
@nexs wrote:
Hi everyone,
As the title suggests, how would you kit out and deploy a combat Archon?

I don't.

Frankly, I'd rather kit out a watermelon for melee than an Archon.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - AP3 is not useful. It's not that I never face Marines, but rather that I don't see the need for a dedicated MEQ-killer (who isn't even very efficient in said role), when I can just shoot them with poison from 36" away.

In contrast, virtually all the non-vehicle units that are a pain to deal with have something in common - a 2+ save.

Also, every time I see his weapon selection I want to cry:
- A Power Sword. So, despite having S3 and only getting one of the 4 power weapons (the least useful one, no less), we still get no point reduction. Outstanding.
- Huskblade. What is the target for this thing? Is there a 3+ save MC that we can't easily kill with poison? Maybe the Wraithknight? Well then I'll just send my Huskblade Archon to kill that Wraithknight and... oh.
- Agoniser. Why is this thing 25pts? Power Fists cost that much because they're S8 AP2 weapons. They wound virtually anything on 2s, can ID anything with T4 (or less) and can mash vehicles and MCs to a pulp. Why are we paying the same points for a weapon that needs 4s to wound, can barely scratch anything with a 2+ save and can't even tough AV10?
- Djin Blade. So, for the measly price of 2 power swords, you can get 2 additional attacks. They come with a downside, obviously. Because, otherwise, that many S3 attacks would just dominate the game. So, on a roll of 1, the Archon takes a wound with no saves allowed. Meaning his Shadowfield is immediately lost. So, by having the gall to actually use my weapon, I also have to risk losing what is basically my Archon's only defence (and 40pts of defence at that).

See, all I can think of when I look at the Archon's weapons is 'why?'. Why do I want to bring any of these, let alone the Archon himself? It's like trying to decide which gun you'll use to shoot yourself in the foot.

Yes.  This.  A dedicated CC character without AP 2 weapons doesn't really have a place anymore.  A CC Archon (AP 3) is like carrying around  a Sony Discman to listen to your music on.  it's a model out of time in the current game.  Oh, and in addition to dealing AP 2 damage, a beatstick needs a 2+ save in return.  And I don't know about you guys, but I have never had my Shadowfield last more than two turns.  Ever.  God, I hate the Shadowfield so much.  I am like Charlie Brown to the Shadowfield's Lucy.  I somehow keep convincing myself that this time, it will finally work out...I'm such an idiot...
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 22:47

@sweetbacon
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA gold.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 23:12

@sweetbacon wrote:

Yes.  This.  A dedicated CC character without AP 2 weapons doesn't really have a place anymore.  A CC Archon (AP 3) is like carrying around  a Sony Discman to listen to your music on.  it's a model out of time in the current game.  Oh, and in addition to dealing AP 2 damage, a beatstick needs a 2+ save in return.  And I don't know about you guys, but I have never had my Shadowfield last more than two turns.  Ever.  God, I hate the Shadowfield so much.  I am like Charlie Brown to the Shadowfield's Lucy.  I somehow keep convincing myself that this time, it will finally work out...I'm such an idiot...

lol!

With regard to the Shadowfield, no, I don't like it either.

@nexs wrote:
I don't like Succubus or Haemonculus as a warlord. Not enough, anyway. Fluff-wise, the succubus and haemy are those that the Archon allows to come on his space raid for what ever they may give in return.

My Haemonculus occasionally deigns to allow Archons to accompany him on his raids. So long as they promise to bring a WWP and don't touch his creations. Very Happy

@nexs wrote:
While the menacing, maniacal Archon sits 18" away from enemies, shooting pot shots at terminators and the rear of vehicles, laughing stupidly as his str8 blaster beams roll 1's and 2's to pen.

Oh, I know that one. My Archon is adept at missing even with BS7. No
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 23:19

Schtupid Archon. Surely, with all his money and power, he could have master crafter weapons, or something. Something other than mediocrity.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 23:21

@nexs wrote:
Schtupid Archon. Surely, with all his money and power, he could have master crafter weapons, or something. Something other than mediocrity.

At this point, I'd settle for him confiscating a Klaive off one of his Incubi. Razz

I do agree though - it's frustrating that we don't even get a MC relic weapon.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 23:25

I suppose the Incubi are ruled by their own. They come along by the request of the archon and I figure would have quite a bank of arrogance. The Lhamaean's venom blade, however... A Lhamaean in the harem of the Archon would be more than obliged to provide him with such poison.


But, also, no.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 23:38

@nexs wrote:
I suppose the Incubi are ruled by their own. They come along by the request of the archon and I figure would have quite a bank of arrogance.

Have him take one off a dead Incubi, then.

"Uh, boss, what are you doing?"
"I'm taking Barry's weapon"
"Yeah, but, isn't grave robbing beneath us?"
"I... uh... need a new weapon. My Agoniser has just short-circuited. Yes, that's it! My Agoniser has short-circuited and I need a replacement to continue the raid."
"Are you sure it's not working, boss? I'm pretty sure it just zapped that corpse there..."
"Oh? Well just hold out your hand and I'll demonstrate how very broken it is."
"Now that I look again, I see that your Agoniser is very definitely broken."
"Good. Now, help me get this Klaive out of his fingers."
"Hey, boss? Isn't that a dead Hekatrix over there? We could go and see if her Agoniser is still working."
"Phil?"
"Yes, boss?"
"Get the bloody Klaive!"


(Some names have been changed, to protect the innocent.)
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Thu Feb 12 2015, 23:45

I like that Barry is the first to die.

Although I expect that, as they're prying the fingers away from the weapon the only finger they can release is the middle one. On both hands.
What a jerk.
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PostSubject: Re: When and how would you use a combat Archon   Fri Feb 13 2015, 00:22

So many LOL's in this thread!

I've pretty much experienced the same thing everyone else has ranted about. Shadowfield disappears turn 2 turn 3 MAX (almost the cost of a venom).. take a blaster and face-palm when he whiffs only to get pounded by what ever he is trying to take out..

To be fair to our lord archons, I have had my fair share of games where he was a CC beast mauling every 3+ save in his path..... That is of course until he runs into ANYTHING posted up with a 2+. at which point he runs face first into a brick wall.
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