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 Harlequin Troupe Loadout

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katfude
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PostSubject: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Fri Feb 06 2015, 13:33

With the White Dwarf last week, we know what their gear does and what it's going to cost. That said, I have not seen any serious conversations on how people will be kitting out their troupes.

Knowing that we don't have the starweaver transport data, FOC or HQs... do you already have a few builds in mind? What weapons will you take and on how many harlequins? Are you already planning to stuff them in battle brother transports?

I did some math and what I discovered is that for a normal trouper ON THE CHARGE, the most points/unsaved wounds efficient weapons are the caress for nidzilla, kiss for terminators, and the embrace for MEQ and TEQ (the caress and kiss are in a dead heat with the embrace against MEQ).

The troupe leader is a big difference, though. The caress is most efficient (it gets more efficient the more attacks you have available) except against MEQ (it ties the power sword in efficiency, but the sword will cause more wounds) and GEQ (embrace is better on the charge).

Bear in mind, the big issue with the embrace is if you don't get the charge, it's total crap, and any round of combat afterward it's terrible, but you could always hit and run (if you survive 2 rounds of combat).

The other issue we have is we need chaff troupers to eat overwatch as a 5+ invuln means we're still going to lose a couple on the charge. All that in mind, the builds I have in mind so far are:

5 man troupe in a venom, and give 2 troupers kisses and the master a caress.

10 man troupe in a raider (nightshield/disintegrator), 6 kisses and the master with a caress. (terminator/nid hunters)

Thoughts?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Fri Feb 06 2015, 13:58

To me, Caress is the best load out. Helping even vs Infantry and Mech. Ant 6 to HIT is great!

I also like the Solitaire Smile
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Fri Feb 06 2015, 14:36

Until the transport capacity of the starweaver is available I think the build size is an open question.

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Anterzhul
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Fri Feb 06 2015, 14:51

Could always just put them in venoms and raiders.

I'm still torn on what to take on them, probably atleast the caress on the troupe master because of his extra attack (and because the power sword is overpriced...), for the rest of the squad, it really depends on how many point games (They are still guardsmen when they come under fire, remember!)

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Fri Feb 06 2015, 20:45

Since the Starweaver looks (in the illustration that's been floating around) like a midway point between a Venom and a Vyper, it seems likely that its capacity will be 5.

We also don't know what the Enigmas of the Black Library are yet, and the Troupe Master has access to them. That could be very relevant.

Even with what we know, I have so many questions. Here's the mathhammer Trystis shared in the rumors/news thread:

Quote :
If the Harlequins charge:
10 Harlequins with Embraces (gives HoW):
vs GEQ: 22.9 kills.
vs MEQ: 10 kills.

10 Harlequins with Kisses (1 S6 ap2 attack):
vs GEQ: 14.4 kills.
vs MEQ: 8.89 kills.

10 Harlequins with Caresses (rending):
vs GEQ: 15.5 kills.
vs MEQ: 10 kills.

Harlequins didn't charge:
10 Harlequins with Embraces:
vs GEQ: 6.6 kills.
vs MEQ: 2.2 kills.

10 Harlequins with Kisses:
vs GEQ: 10 kills.
vs MEQ: 7.03 kills.

10 Harlequins with Caresses:
vs GEQ: 10 kills.
vs MEQ: 6.6 kills.

So generally speaking, the Caress is best on the charge, but the Kiss is best the rest of the time. Also, the Kiss is three points cheaper. So does it make more sense focus on just one weapon option, or mix them together, and if so, what should that ratio be? Should every Trouper be upgraded, or is there a more cost-efficient percentage that should get the toys?

Also, they get guns. I don't think the fusion pistols are worth it, but sprinkling a few neural disruptors into the unit seems like a good idea.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Sun Feb 08 2015, 14:20

This does leave out comparisons against monstrous creatures though.  I think I'd often use them to assault units like dreadknights and riptides where ignoring armor and toughness as well as having an invuln save will be very valuable.  The caress comes out way ahead of the kiss in these instances (5 wounds vs 2 on the dreadknight)
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Sun Feb 08 2015, 23:19

The caress is almost always more useful than the kiss, but versus standard infantry they are similar. Personally I like the caress best because it's able to damage anything, but you pay more for it.

I would never take a squad of embraces. One or two at most. They have to get into base to base in order to work which can be tricky in large numbers, and they add nothing to rounds of combat when you didn't charge. They are great when charging, especially vs low av enemies.

Kisses cost less than a caress and provide a reliable number of s6 ap2. They do about as good as caresses vs infantry, but are not nearly as good vs vehicles. They are not as good against MC either, but can cause instant death.

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Blank05
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 01:25

So, I've been running Harlequin lists for a few days and the best loadout that works for me is 1 additional player with the whole squad getting caresses and kisses. I know it's expensive, coming in at 188pts, but man does it hit hard. Here's hoping that the rumored Starweaver is Transport Capacity: 6. Which it probably won't be, but fingers crossed...
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 03:34

I'm thinking of using Harlies with carreses along with the ghost warrior formation to give them hatred and a 4plus cover save. Harlies with caresses and hatredwould destroy most everything!
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 10:09

I dont like the math on the Embrace as it is really hard to get 10 models in actual B2B contact.
I guess the Caress wins out just because you are able to shred Dreads, Tanks and Knights which would be untouchable otherwise.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 11:03

@Blank05 wrote:
So, I've been running Harlequin lists for a few days and the best loadout that works for me is 1 additional player with the whole squad getting caresses and kisses. I know it's expensive, coming in at 188pts, but man does it hit hard. Here's hoping that the rumored Starweaver is Transport Capacity: 6. Which it probably won't be, but fingers crossed...

Huh? You can't take the caress and kiss on the regular harlies

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 11:06

Sure you can. They're both clearly listed in the white dwarf as "any model may replace their close combat weapon with".
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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 14:47

The troupe master has 2 wounds as well as a 2+ LoS, so I was thinking an Embrace for him and put him in the front, although I would still really love something that helps out when charged or in subsequent rounds.
Definitely a mix (at least 1 caress and kiss). The caress feels so much better especially since it is to hit rolls instead of to wound. But then again it is more expensive as well and doesn't have a guaranteed beefy attack like the kiss does.

Definitely not going to take any pistols. I don't think I want to soften up anything before charging, especially if it could pull them out of range.
Here's to hoping that their coming transport is good for popping transports, is an assault vehicle and can hold at least 6 guys (GW wouldn't give us an extra miniature in a box if we couldn't fit him in somewhere, right? Right?)
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 15:31

@lessthanjeff wrote:
Sure you can.  They're both clearly listed in the white dwarf as "any model may replace their close combat weapon with".

I meant you cant take both on the same harlequin.

You are only given permission to replace your CCW with ONE of the following...

so the solitaire is unique (so far) as he has 2 of the weapons.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 16:49

I think Blank05 meant that the squad all had either Kisses or Caresses, not both.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 17:27

Quote :
Also, they get guns. I don't think the fusion pistols are worth it

They are, tested and proven.True Melta can never be bad.

For me CC load out comes down to this - caresses act through weight of atacks, while kisses are reliable. So caresses have more potential kills, i see counted average, but didnt counted potential, that matters too.

Kiss is reliable, you hit on a 3+ most of the times, wound on 2+, no save. Boom.

Il probably take mix of both, kiss to have good combat result always, and caresses to have good damage potential.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 19:14

To add another unknown variable into the equation: Not only do we not know the capacity of the Starwhatever transport, I would say it's pretty safe to assume that they will have access to webway portals given that they live in the webway. Fusion pistols then become a pretty sweet option for vehicle hunting whereas the Neural Shredder works better from a threat range for foot slogging units.

It's a big wait and see game until that codex drops, but I do see taking troupes as units designed to take on general infantry or smaller units that can take on monstrous creatures/vehicles. Trying to dual-duty these units will create such a points-sink that you're get wiped off the board with the low model count.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 20:02

Quote :
Trying to dual-duty these units will create such a points-sink that you're get wiped off the board with the low model count.
While it is true for Dark Kin, i fear it is somewhat not for Harlies. They are completely elite army/detachment, high quality, low model count. They are like Grey Knights for Space Marines, sure you can take em cheap and cheerfull, but thats not the point of taking them.

There has to be a complete rabit from the hat level of trickery to make Harlies work. No way we can rush them like skimmer spam, too expensive. Incubi like expensive, every squad.

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Blank05
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Mon Feb 09 2015, 22:20

@Massaen wrote:
@lessthanjeff wrote:
Sure you can.  They're both clearly listed in the white dwarf as "any model may replace their close combat weapon with".

I meant you cant take both on the same harlequin.

You are only given permission to replace your CCW with ONE of the following...

so the solitaire is unique (so far) as he has 2 of the weapons.

I meant taking both on each harlie, however, I just realized that that isn't possible... Seeing how hard the hit having both it's probably for good reason :p
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Troupe Loadout   Tue Feb 10 2015, 03:10

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Also, they get guns. I don't think the fusion pistols are worth it

They are, tested and proven.True Melta can never be bad.

For me CC load out comes down to this - caresses act through weight of atacks, while kisses are reliable. So caresses have more potential kills, i see  counted average, but didnt counted potential, that matters too.

Kiss is reliable, you hit on a 3+ most of the times, wound on 2+, no save. Boom.

Il probably take mix of both, kiss to have good combat result always, and caresses to have good damage potential.

I agree that a mix of kisses an caresses is probably the best, maybe like one embrace depending on unit size for fun. The kiss being cheap and reliable is nice, but the caress is a threat to anything including high AV so a few will be nice.
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