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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 13:04

Hi All,

Im playing a comnpetetive game against my friend running highlander deamons.
I never play competitivley as i cant be doing with the minutiea of that type of game. however, we have decided to play a competetive game nonetheless.

Although Highlander lists arent specifically tooled up, my friend is a much better tactician than me, and this style of play comes more naturally to him.

We are playing 1500 points, and i would like to know what the most competitifve army i can run looks like with the models i have.
He will run numerous monstrous creatures, probably the heavy psycher greater deamon (LOC or KOS, can never remember which it is) a unit of khorne hounds, a big unit if pink hhorrors and the screamer thinkgs that bladevane like our bikes used to. and a soul grinder.

I have virtually everyhting our book can put out, except wracks (i only have 5), in terms of vehicles i have 5 venoms, 2 raiders, 2 ravagers, 2 razorwings and a voidraven, plenty of bikes and loads of troops.
I also have a wave serpent, an unit of 10 guardians (which i suppose could double as Dire Avengers) a HWP and a unit of about 9 Fire dragons including exarch.

It doesnt matter how cheesy or spammy, I have never written a list with the sole purpose of winning a game, so i would like help with the list and the tactics of said list.

thanks


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Graviton
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 13:27

What is a Highlander list and what do you mein with specifically Tooles up?
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 14:06

Highlander list is only one choice of anything, He will run that, i will run whatever.


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Razorfate
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 17:26

Eldar autarch is a very strong choice. Jetbike, mantle of the laughing god, laser lance and fusion gun. He is 145 points with 2+rerollable cover save. 5 str6 ap3 attacks on the charge and hit and run. Waveserpent with 5 dire avengers with scatter laser will be very useful against kairos fateweaver which has 2 + rerillable cover save which wll probably used by your opponent.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 18:01

Quote :
Highlander list is only one choice of anything, He will run that, i will run whatever.
Dedicated transports count? If yes, change an army.

We already had this discussion some time before.
That type of restrictions favors certain armies more while limiting others. It limits DE particulary.
One can think SM or Eldar lists no problem with this restrictions, while most of the DE stuff need transport, and there is only 2.

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 18:23

@Azrubael:
@Lord Puberis wrote:
Highlander list is only one choice of anything, He will run that, i will run whatever.


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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 19:30

Yeah, to clarify, I'm not running highlander, he is.

I can spam whatever I want.

I'm thinking 5 dire avengers, wave serpent with cannon and scatter laser. At least 4 venom with kabbies blasters in them.

Two ravagers possibly?

Could prob go two razorwings?

Just looking for ideas

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Razorfate
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 19:49

i ran the autarch i mentioned above, 1 wraithknight and 3 windriders as eldar ally detachment. Autarch and wraithknight took the heat away from our glass cannon ravagers and venoms while the windriders took objectives and killed the struggling survivors diminished in numbers from venom fire.
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 20:02

I don't have any wind riders or a WK.
I am going for this;
1 lhammy in a dual venom
4 dual venom, 5 kabbies with blaster
3 reavers (with aforementioned autarch) 1 CC
2 tri lance ravagers
2 lance razorwings
5 dire avengers with WS with cannon and scatter laser, and ghost walk matrix (to use points)


What you guys think?
Lastly, how does fate weaver get a 2+ re roll cover save?

Thanks

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 20:05

Do Chaos Daemons have any (decent) armour saves?

If not, it might be worth ditching Blasters and Dark Lances where possible, and just spamming poison.

Bikes could be good - more poisoned shooting and I imagine their HoW attacks would really hurt a lot of daemon units.

@Lord Puberis wrote:

Lastly, how does fate weaver get a 2+ re roll cover save?

Through lax proof-reading and no playtesting. Rolling Eyes
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 20:16

They don't, but my thinking was I could use the lances to clear out the sound grinder, and blasters could ID things like the hounds?
I have much much poison already?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 20:24

Good point about the Soul Grinder. I'd forgotten Daemons had a vehicle. Razz
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 20:36

And it's always a thorn in my side.
Have seen his list.
Fate weaver, two of the named heralds (the khorne one and the changeling) pack of dogs, screamers, pink horrors, should grinder.
And an aegis with quad gun.
It's not quite what I expected, but he is a good player, and will play tactically.
I'm thinking if I get first turn,try to empty everything into fate weaver?
Then gunline a bit and let him run across the board?
What you think?

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Mon Feb 02 2015, 22:36

@Lord Puberis wrote:

Lastly, how does fate weaver get a 2+ re roll cover save?

Thanks
If he rolls the "Shrouding" power he can Jink for a 2+ cover save. Other than that, he has a 4+ Invul save. And because he'd a Daemon of Tzeentch he always rerolls 1's on any save he takes.
With a "Grimoire of True Names" he can easily get a rerollable 2+ invul save, allthough I would think the Grimoire will probably be spend on the Screamers or Dogs. With the Cursed Earth power that will be a 2+ invul save for them as well, which is nasty.

Lots and lots of poison is the key. Although it seems like bringing down Fatey if you get turn one is good, he is NOT the driving factor in that list. The most important thing is the Grimoire. Find the unit where this is parked, and get rid of it. Imo the dogs arnd the screamers are the most dangerous ones for you, and the screamers you can easily kill turn one, if you begin. The dogs will be straight in your face, but they cannot attack until turn 2, because they Scouted foreward(probably).
Once these two units are dead, there is only Fateweaver, 2 horror units and a soulgrinder left, and you should easily be able to kill those.
If you move your venoms ahead so the passengers can fire too, you're looking at 17-18 unsaved wounds on turn 1 in poison alone. Add to that the Allies and the lances, and I'd say you're off to a pretty good start.
Good luck Smile

Also, if you worry about the quadgun removing your flyer, remember that it only has two wounds, and the poison cares little for Toughness 7 Wink
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Razorfate
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Tue Feb 03 2015, 12:31

I mentioned the autarch for the third time as if you want to bring cwe, you will need an hq and i did not see any farseer or autarch in your list, so i thought that you would go buy or borrow one. On that assumption, if you will go buy an eldar hq, the autarch one is the best one, imo.


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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Tue Feb 03 2015, 14:46

I know,

re read my list, you will see, with the reaver Jet bikes, the autarch, as you suggested.

I think its a great idea. I was going to look at Farseer for a bit of pychic power, but cant be ringed!!!

final question, as the game is tonight, what does the ghostwalk matrix do? I know it grants the vehicle 'move through cover' does this mean that the vehicle auto passes terrain tests?

I will let you know how it goes.

thanks

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"I think the next stage for him is to remortgage and bring a captial Ship...
.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Tue Feb 03 2015, 14:56

If you're bringing those razorwings, you really want the quad gun dead, it'll either kill one before they can do anything, or force you to jink (technically till the end of your next turn if you read the rules carefully) in which case you might as well not bring them.

I focus on neutralising anti air fire, and I only bring 1 razorwing, with two it's doubly important to minimise those threats.

1 Ravager should be enough, or poison from the venoms should get through it too.

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Aroban
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Tue Feb 03 2015, 21:16

Most competitive list, hands down: 100 mandrakes in the old codex = 1500 points.

Unfortunately they deleted their 5+ invulnerable save, so they became useless this Dex. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Wed Feb 04 2015, 07:56

Change Kabal with Wyches, that's all.

You cannot stop Daemons just with fire. But you can block some units in CC for 1 turn, and shoot the others, fighting Daemons one unit at the time. 90% fire 10% Close Combat.

Imho, 100% fire doesn't work.

Destroys his Orrors, shut down his reserves of dice (11×2 Orrors are 6 warp charges).
Wait until dice doesn't roll well (no grimoire, failed powers etc) and destroy all non-twinliked2+ units u can.

But first of all, shut down his dice pool. A Deamon without powers is a death Deamon.

4×5 Wyches are 20 poisoned shoots+20 4++ in cc. And Daemon doesn't shoot (I.e. they need to cast primaris tzeetch, so no evocations/telepathy). If used correctly, these girls can assault in your turn, don't break, and getting overhelmed in opponents turn>>> you have blocked one unit for his turn, ready now to shoot them down.
Use Wyches carefull and correctly, and they will value mooore of simply Kabal warrios.

Imho

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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Wed Feb 04 2015, 11:15

A couple of thoughts, having played the game last night.

we called it after 2 turns, i rolled as badly as is humanly possible, whilst he rolled as well as i rolled badly, so despite all the planning etc, and the fact we wanted to practice a competitive game, it became ridiculous after a turn of me missing the majority of 'to hit rolls' and then failing to wound.
We are going to play again next week, with same armies, and hopefully it wont be as ridiculous as last night.
He went first, shot a venom, failed both 3 up cover saves, wrecked, not a lot else hhappened, im thinking, no probs, i have 5.
My turn comes, I position a venom, and the 5 warriors from the wrecked venom into a position to shoot the quad gun, i shuffle venoms about in order to bring some fire on the Dogs, most of which he hasnt got cover for, the screamers had grimmoire off, so ignored them, thinking that they can only really take one unit, and i can get them when the grim fails.
i have all venoms, and WS in a position to shoot multiple targets, so once i do some damge to dogs to seriously reduce effectivness, i can go after horrors.
Ravagers move to take away cover from Soul Grinder, you know maybe get a couple of HP off it, and perhaps knock a weapon off.

shooting starts, 3 venoms, plus rapid firing passengers, wave serpent (inc shield) kill........ 2 dogs (4 wounds from 58 poison, 3 blaster, 3 shield, and the other 2 guns from WS) 2 DOGS!!!
my two ravagers miss 4 of their 6 shots, roll a one and a 5 for armour pen, then i roll a 1, which it then ignores so 2 ravagers, no cover, 1 HP damage done.

By this point, im frustrated, but no matter, i say, possibly they can kill a couple of vehicles. but then my flyers arrive and game on.

In his turn, the warpstorm destroys one of my ravagers, his dogs multi charge the WS and a venom, Both dead, his soul grinder shoots another venom and his screamers another. The last venom (which i Forgot to say, didnt manage to kill the quad gun in the my first turn) gets immobilised by the self same quad gun!!

Now im really annoyed, pretty much all my vehicles are knackered, and the one that isnt is my ravager, that has clearly got blind gunners!!

My turn 2, Autarch with his +/- 1 to reserve rolls, needing 2's to get both my razorwings in, yep, two 1's.

I then finally manage to kill the quad gun, with a full venom and squad shooting it, I move my Autarch into position to charge the 2 nurgling bases with nurgle herald manning the gun. The small amount of troops i have left shoot at the dogs, and recently summoned Khorne Juggernaughts, i kill a few more thias turn, 4 to be precise.

I then charge the Autarch at the nurglings, accept challenge from herald (someone said 6 attacks on charge at S6- how is this the case) misses 3 of his 4 attacks (d grenades, remove one and his HOW was S3?? prob want clarification) and fails to wound, despite being S6, loses 2 wounds to THE NURGLINGS and fails his Hit and Run on a 6 (pretty much the only six i rolled all night)

At that point, i conceded.

Im not annoyed with the list and how i played it, aside from speed bumping the dogs, i didnt make many poor tactical decisions, tried to put guns in places to negate cover, or have multiple target, I just rolled like an absolute pudding!!!

to respond to the guy above recommending wyches as a speed bump, that is actually a really good idea, and something i will think about for next time.

I think the next time i play, i will try castling a little bit more, we played the diagonal deployment, so i was wary of bunching up due to the sould grinders large blast, if we went end to end i could probably get out of range. that way i could pick on a unit one at a time as they come across the board!!

So all in all a bit disapointed, but not because of the list, but due to bad luck!!!

its Karma for trying to play WAAC

Any further ideas are welcome!!!

thanks

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.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Wed Feb 04 2015, 11:26

Man I hate those games, sometimes the dice just don't wanna play ball (mention my name in the same sentence as kill team at my club and everyone laughs, remembering how it took me three turns using sternguard and sniper rifles to kill a single sororitas). At that point it ceases to become fun for either of you - you because the dice are bad and your opponent because they feel guilty that it's not their ability that's beating you (at least that's how I've felt when the dice are clearly ruining other people's day!)

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Razorfate
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Wed Feb 04 2015, 13:51

@Lord Puberis wrote:


I then charge the Autarch at the nurglings, accept challenge from herald (someone said 6 attacks on charge at S6- how is this the case) misses 3 of his 4 attacks (d grenades, remove one and his HOW was S3?? prob want clarification)

The autarch carries laser lance, it is s+3 ap3 melee weapon with impact speciality. Impact is laser lance hits with s+3 when the autarch charges. Other rounds it is a normal melee weapon.

Autarch has 4 weapons for two weapons and 1 more for charge bonus. The HOW attack is made at s3 as you mentioned.

Sorry for the bad dice rolling btw. I myself charge 5 dire avengers who were holding an emperor's will objective with my 5 kabalite warriors the last turn of our previous league game. The kabalites made 15 ws4 s4 attacks and only made 3 hits and 1 wound, and i lost the game.
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Wed Feb 04 2015, 13:57

Thank you for the clarification,

It was as i suspected then, the HOW made at base S, and only 4 attacks due to Defensive Grenades.

I wasnt too upset, just frustrated as I had spent a bit of time trying to think competitivley, only for the dice to desert me!!

Im still reasonably confident that the list i took is a decent matchup, particularly against deamons (and prob nids and orks aswell) and when we play again, i think it will go better.

thanks

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.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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PostSubject: Re: most competetive list possible   Wed Feb 04 2015, 22:05

I usually play against the same kind of list, with kairos, screamerstar with 2/3 herald, dogs with khorne herald, couple of daemon princes.
The easier will be to start first, and fire all you have on T1 on screamer before they get the rerollable 2++. Just keep some ammo for the pink horrors, you just need to drop them under 11 to remove a warp charge each unit.
Otherwise you have to tarpit screamers somehow (I usually go for dark artisan, last game they kept screamerstar, dogs, 1 prince and some other summoned units blocked for the whole game, losing only the cronos on T5, and killing dogs, the prince and a summoned plaguesomething...can't remember the name), or run from them shooting kairos and any herald casting cursed earth or holding the grimoire, till they either fail either of them.
I don't think HoW will help a lot, mainly because you do NOT want to be in cc with daemons, only DA or grots could stand a chance...
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