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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 11:21

Last game, my Razorwing came on and shot all 4 missiles into a tightly-packed unit of 20 Flayed Ones (plus 2 chracters).

All four missiles hit (78 hits altogether), 58 wounds... 4 dead. Outstanding.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 11:31

@The Shredder wrote:
Last game, my Razorwing came on and shot all 4 missiles into a tightly-packed unit of 20 Flayed Ones (plus 2 chracters).

All four missiles hit (78 hits altogether), 58 wounds... 4 dead. Outstanding.

Sarcasm?

Isn't that really more of an issue with the new Necrons (or your opponent's rolling?) though rather than the flyer? I played a wraithknight last week (well, two actually) and watched in horror as my opponent made 3+ saves on all 11 wounds I scored on it in one turn from a pair of venoms. Not the venoms' fault though, and I wouldn't turn round and call them rubbish as a result.


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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 11:35

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Sarcasm?

Isn't that really more of an issue with the new Necrons (or your opponent's rolling?) though rather than the flyer? I played a wraithknight last week (well, two actually) and watched in horror as my opponent made 3+ saves on all 11 wounds I scored on it in one turn from a pair of venoms. Not the venoms' fault though, and I wouldn't turn round and call them rubbish as a result.

I don't recall saying that it was an issue with the flier. Neutral

I just thought it was an amusing (if rather depressing) anecdote.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 11:36

@The Shredder wrote:
Last game, my Razorwing came on and shot all 4 missiles into a tightly-packed unit of 20 Flayed Ones (plus 2 chracters).

All four missiles hit (78 hits altogether), 58 wounds... 4 dead. Outstanding.

Whilst this generally matches my own experience with our flyers, I do have to say that it also represents freakishly bad dice. With 78 hits (how do you even get ~20 models under a 5" blast?) at S6 v T4 you would expect 65 wounds, 32.5 unsaved, 21.66 dead after RP. 4 dead is ridiculously bad.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 11:39

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Whilst this generally matches my own experience with our flyers, I do have to say that it also represents freakishly bad dice. With 78 hits (how do you even get ~20 models under a 5" blast?) at S6 v T4 you would expect 65 wounds, 32.5 unsaved, 21.66 dead after RP. 4 dead is ridiculously bad.

Well, one of the models was a cryptek (so 4+ RP), and he use a resurrection orb to reroll all failed saves.

As to getting 18 of them under a blast, they were tightly packed going through a bottleneck. But, it was him who counted 18 of them - I just took his word.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 12:16

@The Shredder wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Whilst this generally matches my own experience with our flyers, I do have to say that it also represents freakishly bad dice. With 78 hits (how do you even get ~20 models under a 5" blast?) at S6 v T4 you would expect 65 wounds, 32.5 unsaved, 21.66 dead after RP. 4 dead is ridiculously bad.

Well, one of the models was a cryptek (so 4+ RP), and he use a resurrection orb to reroll all failed saves.

As to getting 18 of them under a blast, they were tightly packed going through a bottleneck. But, it was him who counted 18 of them - I just took his word.

Even with 4+ rerollable RP you still managed less than half what you would expect. Well done sir!! Shocked

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 12:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Whilst this generally matches my own experience with our flyers, I do have to say that it also represents freakishly bad dice. With 78 hits (how do you even get ~20 models under a 5" blast?) at S6 v T4 you would expect 65 wounds, 32.5 unsaved, 21.66 dead after RP. 4 dead is ridiculously bad.

Well, one of the models was a cryptek (so 4+ RP), and he use a resurrection orb to reroll all failed saves.

As to getting 18 of them under a blast, they were tightly packed going through a bottleneck. But, it was him who counted 18 of them - I just took his word.

Even with 4+ rerollable RP you still managed less than half what you would expect. Well done sir!! Shocked

Thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 17 2015, 21:25

I played a blood Angels assault marine list this evening, I ran two razorwings and a void raven, coupled with a corpse thief claw, now granted there was some awful play from my opponent, but basically one of his big units of assault marines had run away from a combat with my TALOS, and we're bunched up next to a unit of normal space marines, one razorwing killed a grand total of 18 marines from the missiles, and the second razorwing killed 7 more across three units.
The void raven didn't have much to shoot about, but razorwings are simply deadly against infantry when bunched up?
Such good value

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Tue Feb 24 2015, 16:16

Razorwing all the way. They're cheap, effective, and goes in Fast. There's really not much debate.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 00:11

@HERO wrote:
Razorwing all the way.  They're cheap, effective, and goes in Fast.  There's really not much debate.
There is much debate hence why there is an entire article about it. It doesn't do the job a fighter is suppose to do (anti air) that is needed in the codex. 130 points unupgraded and is not a specialist in any field is not cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 01:37

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Razorwing all the way.  They're cheap, effective, and goes in Fast.  There's really not much debate.
There is much debate hence why there is an entire article about it. It doesn't do the job a fighter is suppose to do (anti air) that is needed in the codex. 130 points unupgraded and is not a specialist in any field is not cheap.

Actually, 130 un-upgraded is a very fair price to pay for 4 S6 large blasts and 6x shots with the Dissies.  I would say that this is designed for destroying infantry, which I think it conveys very well.

Personally, I don't think there is a debate, or there should be an article around it.  Our flyers are used for ground targets, we have a weakness vs. air because our flyers were not designed for anti-air.  While I prefer the lances on my Razorwings, I don't look at them for air coverage.  Those S8 AP2 lances are for multi-wound T4 targets or for armor on the ground.  To complain about their AA abilities would be similar to complaining to a football player that he's not playing tennis well.

The only argument I see here is the price of the Voidraven, which quite frankly, is absolutely outlandish and a crime.  Therefore, that leaves us with the cheaper alternative, which for better points, and in a better slot, fulfills the same battlefield role (which is annihilating ground targets).

If you want AA, you're looking at the wrong codex. It's time to see our Craftworld/Corsair brothers for help in that department.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 03:31

How would these s6blasts help against wave serpents, hive tyrants, greater daemons, knights, dreadnoughts, heldrakes, stormravens, necrons flyers (or anything in their book), space marine drop pods, or tau riptides/ broadsides/ crisis suits. The flyer is okay at several things but it can't do any one thing well hence why it is not cheap. Run a razorwing where I play and it will not get its points back. Heck look at the LVO. Only 2 out of the top 8 (if that) the razorwing might get its points back.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 04:34

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
How would these s6blasts help against wave serpents, hive tyrants, greater daemons, knights, dreadnoughts, heldrakes, stormravens, necrons flyers (or anything in their book), space marine drop pods, or tau riptides/ broadsides/ crisis suits. The flyer is okay at several things but it can't do any one thing well hence why it is not cheap. Run a razorwing where I play and it will not get its points back. Heck look at the LVO. Only 2 out of the top 8 (if that) the razorwing might get its points back.

I run mine with Lances and the Cannon and they both have made their points back in each game.  I throw the Cannon on them for things like Flyrants and other MCs.  For 150pts I have something that can deal with anything in the game.  Hordes with the missiles, MCs with Cannon and Lances, other fliers with the Lances.  Granted the Lances are not the best, but people often Jink against them and if they don't you have an ok chance of hurting them and even downing the flier with a 5 or 6.  (Since Immobilized fliers can crash now)

We don't need things to kill Riptides since we have a ton of poison and tons of units for assault.

Broadsides and Crisis suits I thought got doubled out by Dark Lances and Str. 6 wounds on 2s.  I don't think that is terrible nor a bad use of the flier.  You don't necessarily have to shoot the blasts at them, but they are by far from useless aginst some of the units you named.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 06:49

I had bad luck last time I ran my Razorwing, but I think it was just the wrong setting. My FLGS is starting 750 pt. matches this next month, and after reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced that it could do some good things. My question is, what do people run on it? I'm getting that Dizzies/DL's seem to be about a 50/50 toss up - really just what you want it to be good at. The Splinter Cannon seems like a less popular upgrade, and that's fair since it's 10 more points for splinter fire that you'll have loads of elsewhere. And then there's Night Shields - which I figured were an auto-take, but I'm realizing that if you jink, it better be on turn 2 or 3, or you're not going to make it back on the board in time to do another pass. So what do people think?
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 07:00

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
How would these s6blasts help against wave serpents, hive tyrants, greater daemons, knights, dreadnoughts, heldrakes, stormravens, necrons flyers (or anything in their book), space marine drop pods, or tau riptides/ broadsides/ crisis suits. The flyer is okay at several things but it can't do any one thing well hence why it is not cheap. Run a razorwing where I play and it will not get its points back. Heck look at the LVO. Only 2 out of the top 8 (if that) the razorwing might get its points back.

Dude, to even mention Dark Eldar and LVO in the same sentence is a travesty.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 11:47

@HERO wrote:
@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
How would these s6blasts help against wave serpents, hive tyrants, greater daemons, knights, dreadnoughts, heldrakes, stormravens, necrons flyers (or anything in their book), space marine drop pods, or tau riptides/ broadsides/ crisis suits. The flyer is okay at several things but it can't do any one thing well hence why it is not cheap. Run a razorwing where I play and it will not get its points back. Heck look at the LVO. Only 2 out of the top 8 (if that) the razorwing might get its points back.

Dude, to even mention Dark Eldar and LVO in the same sentence is a travesty.

Why? The co-founder of the LVO is a dedicated Dark Eldar player, a guest of the forum's podcast and an excellent top-tier tournament winning player and all around great guy.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 12:57

@HERO wrote:
Dude, to even mention Dark Eldar and LVO in the same sentence is a travesty.

Why's that?
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 14:12

@SweaterKittens wrote:
The Splinter Cannon seems like a less popular upgrade, and that's fair since it's 10 more points for splinter fire that you'll have loads of elsewhere. And then there's Night Shields - which I figured were an auto-take, but I'm realizing that if you jink, it better be on turn 2 or 3, or you're not going to make it back on the board in time to do another pass. So what do people think?

Though we have loads of Cannons everywhere, having a Skyfiring Cannon is pretty great. Pulling an extra wound or two from that Cannon can really make the difference. Plus if you blow your load on the missiles you still have some more anti-infantry shots coming at 36'' with the lances instead of the meager Rifle. I thought it expensive at first, but with the prevalence of FMCs it has been great as most opponents dont expect it and has been game changing in some cases.

I dont use Night Shields because I have found that when someone shoots at my Razorwings, having a 3+ opposed to a 4+ hasnt mattered. Flyrants or Vector Strikes do me in more than Bolters or other basic shots. Plus at 15pts and the Cannon upgrade makes them, to me, too expensive. Ill take my chances with the 4+ Jink and then fly off the board if need be.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Wed Feb 25 2015, 16:57

Why? Because like I said many many moons ago after our codex came out, we're going to be the Eldar's water bitch with the WWP. Look at the LVO placement of Dark Eldar, pure DE players or even allies. When it comes to DE, especially one as cutthroat as LVO where people take come the apoc idiot list with hive tyrants paired up with imp knights, DE is just sad.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Thu Feb 26 2015, 00:59

@HERO wrote:
@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
How would these s6blasts help against wave serpents, hive tyrants, greater daemons, knights, dreadnoughts, heldrakes, stormravens, necrons flyers (or anything in their book), space marine drop pods, or tau riptides/ broadsides/ crisis suits. The flyer is okay at several things but it can't do any one thing well hence why it is not cheap. Run a razorwing where I play and it will not get its points back. Heck look at the LVO. Only 2 out of the top 8 (if that) the razorwing might get its points back.

Dude, to even mention Dark Eldar and LVO in the same sentence is a travesty.
Okay so when I'm going to a tournament (Alamo GT for me) I want to beat those lists with Dark Eldar as my army I may be allying in some guys but I'm bringing the best of Dark Eldar the fighter is not a part of that. Also you may be using the Webway portal wrong (the portal doesnt allow vehicles to deepstrike without scattering there's a thread about it though I am sending an email about it to see if they will faq the answer).
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Thu Feb 26 2015, 05:51

Quote :
Okay so when I'm going to a tournament (Alamo GT for me) I want to beat those lists with Dark Eldar as my army I may be allying in some guys but I'm bringing the best of Dark Eldar the fighter is not a part of that. Also you may be using the Webway portal wrong (the portal doesnt allow vehicles to deepstrike without scattering there's a thread about it though I am sending an email about it to see if they will faq the answer).

I have no idea what you're talking about.  These sentences are atrocious.

Edit: After re-reading what you wrote, I want to re-iterate that the comparison here is between the Razorwing and the Voidraven, not whether or not they're competitive enough in LVO. I thought I made that pretty clear when I said it was a travesty to bring up DE and LVO in the same sentence. I don't think DE is good enough to compete in that arena, and if they did compete, they did so as waterboys and not as an viable army.

On the subject of what you said about the WWP, I think you're mad, because no one has brought this up in any event that I've heard of so far. Unless some neckbeard really wants to twist the RAW, I don't think a FAQ is needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Thu Feb 26 2015, 07:47

In the back of the codex, the summary phrases the webway portal rules a little differently, and clearly states that it works on vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:11

@Calyptra wrote:
In the back of the codex, the summary phrases the webway portal rules a little differently, and clearly states that it works on vehicles.

This.
Added to which, if the summary was written by the same person that wrote the rule, it gives a clear indication as to what was intended. If the summary was written by a different author, it gives a clear indication of the direction of any faq that may be forthcoming. As such, I don't see how anyone could argue it works differently to the summary (unless as mentioned previously, neckbeard!)

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Thu Feb 26 2015, 20:12

Does anyone have a picture of the wording (or you can write it out) of the summary at the back of the paper codex? My digital copy doesn't have this?
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Thu Feb 26 2015, 20:58

What does your digital version say HERO.

The wwp argument has no real merit to it as it is written differently two times in the codex. It is one of those conundrum arguments that just goes around in circles

Reference pg. 112.5...
Webway portal: if in reserve or Ongoing Reserve, model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has Deep Strike, and will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

Pg 108. Webway Portal:
If a model with a webway portal is in Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, then the model and any unit it has joined or is upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

The shadow field is written in a similar way in the codex. Pg107 says that the field lasts until the end of the phase in which an invl was failed. The reference section says the save is lost as soon as the save is failed like in the old book.

The intent of the rules seems clear to how GW intends them to work, but they are still unclear as to which takes precedence because the rules are poorly written.

To me it seems the intention is for the vehicle to not scatter. The archon knows where he will use the portal so why would it scatter if he himself and unit would not scatter if arriving without said vehicle?

Yeah there is a thread in theQ&A rules section about this if people wish to debate this.

Everybody that i know in my area (western Canada/USA) and the LVO (big ass tournament in Vegas) play the WWP to not scatter, and the shadow field lasts until the end of the phase

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