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 Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?

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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Fri Jan 30 2015, 21:00

Me and several friends were discussing the various armies and all when we got into the subject of a flyer spam army would destroy my army. I agreed because I have no anti air in my army (I run pure mobile DE) and I don't use the flyers because of how terrible they are. One of the guys (who plays tau) argued that they were better then the tau ones until I explained what they are suppose to do and how they don't work.
1. No invul, which means to get a save you have to jink.
2. If you jink you can't make up for hitting on 6's with mass shooting, missiles can't be shot, and boltguns can hurt even our bombers.
3. Our bomber is better at anti flyers then our fighter... that is just shameful.

Our fighter is okay at 3 separate things with lances (if you take diss you shouldn't bring a flyer bring a ravager) for anti flyer and armor, poison for monstrous creatures (which TL warriors in raiders and venoms do better), and large blasts that are good for hoards but if jinked cant be shot, which means it does everything poorly and the one thing that it should do (take out other flyers it does worse than any other army).

The bomber on first glance is cool, small blast lances! great, S9 Lances even better! S9 large blast mine sexy! until you realize that once again bolters can kill it, if you want to live you jink which means the small blast lances can't shoot. The S9 lances are only 2 shots so you get 2 shots that if smart any other flyer will jink. Then in their turn they will shoot at the bomber with their TL stuff that we have to jink to live because the worse they will wound on is 4's. And don't even think about taking the missiles due to being an additional 40-60 points on top of the night shields 15.

So in summary my question is, is the Eldar flyer the only one worth bringing?
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 06:17

Honestly, I think its actually one of the better flyers in the game. I have used a Razorwing in nearly every game, and it has consistently been great. Typically as anti-infantry the first turn or two then anti-tank after the missiles are done. You almost never have to jink the turn it comes in so you can fire your missiles. The missiles are brutal taking out key infantry, and its only a bit worse than the ravager at anti-tank, but is frequently far more survivable.

You are drastically overplaying the fact that it can be killed by bolters. It definitely can... but it takes like a 100 bolter shots. Most opponents won't even waste the shots on it unless there is nothing else to shoot at. I definitely wouldn't because of them unless there were going to be buckets, or I was down to one hull point. If I do jink I usually just fly of the board so when the plane comes back I can position it how I want anyway. This has made it great at taking out enemy tanks.

Since its rarely shot at I have only had to jink a couple of times in the total of my games, versus things that shoot a lot of high strength, and stuff with skyfire. The downside isn't from bolters its usually from other fliers, but I have noticed a trend in my games. After the missiles are gone my razorwing is usually ignored even by enemy fliers. They would rather shoot at my ground forces to keep them from grabbing objectives, or to help their ground forces in general. Without the missiles they just don't see it as a high priority when my jetbikes speed around gathering victory points.

I don't know that they are competitive in a tournament level, but they are for casual games.
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SaturdayNightWrist
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 06:19

I'll bring 3 razorwings on occasion. Fly on, bring the pain fly off.
Just like most other things in our army, it's all about bringing quick hurt to the enemy.
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Manners_Cat
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 06:57

People love the voidraven...? Neutral

To be honest I think your Tau friend has a point, as Tau fliers are awful. Beyond that I'd rarely ever jink to bolters especially if they're only hitting me on 6s.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 15:54

I don't really get the love either. You are basically paying 160 points for 4x str6 ap5 large blasts. Then you probably have 2 other turns of shooting 2x Lances.

Seems massively over costed to me.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 15:58

@Hellstrom wrote:
I don't really get the love either. You are basically paying 160 points for 4x str6 ap5 large blasts. Then you probably have 2 other turns of shooting 2x Lances.

Seems massively over costed to me.

2 sky lances.

I don't like Voidravens, but Razorwings are great! 4 large blasts is a really good fire against blob infantry (IG?), and 2 sky lances are a fine fire aganist flyers AND flying MC.

I like them Smile
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 16:00

Quote :
You are basically paying 160 points for 4x str6 ap5 large blasts.
Dont know why you are paying 160. I pay 140 for unit that will come and do pain no matter what.
Its 10 points for 2 lances, not one.

Its way cheaper then Kabalite Boat, and it has an impact damage, rather then slice there, slice there.
Came, shot, pooh. No need to maneuvre, no nothing. Just point and stuff dies.

Its target of choice - squads hiding behind transport, or forced to leave said transport.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 16:20

Sorry, meant 155. I assumed NS were standard fit, are they not?
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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 16:30

I like them cause I love jetfighters and other such fast-movers (All though I do have 3600pts of Emperors children + friends, and lots of imperials, mostly SoB and Inq, i rarely play them), because I do not have the patience to play anything slower than DE.

I rarely take less than 3 fighters, and usually 3 fighters + 1 bomber.

Sure, Sometimes they kill like half a plane and some footsloggers each, and sometimes a single RJF (With dissies and SC) takes out 1/3rd of the opponents army single-handedly. (Once killed shadowsun, 2 stealth suits, 1 tau transport, 12 fire-warriors, 1 tau Forge World flyer and took down a riptide to 1 W in a single game with a single RJF).

But that's not much of a problem. I usually reliably kill most things with whatever I have on the ground, and let my planes just do some air superiority, and, when the skies are empty, just let them pick off some ground-units.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sat Jan 31 2015, 22:33

@Hellstrom wrote:
Sorry, meant 155. I assumed NS were standard fit, are they not?

I don't think so, never purchased it
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 00:06

Personally, I'd take one if it were AV5 all round and could only damage stuff by crashing and burning on them - I just love the models so much!

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 02:07

I find the Voidraven to be decent. It isn't the most cost effective, but decent. I've been trying it out quite a bit because it will be a centerpiece for painting. In game, it has either been amazing or crap. Nothing in between. Once the missiles are gone, people tend to ignore it. I can usually drop all 4 missiles and the bomb before it explodes.

And jinking to fly off the board hasn't been terrible. It has usually set up a good bombing run on turn 4.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 05:31

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
(if you take diss you shouldn't bring a flyer bring a ravager)

Have to disagree with you there mate.
I usually take a stock razorwing, 130pts of excellent AI strike power.

TBH I only started taking it because the model is so darn pretty but it really surprised me how much damage this baby could inflict, It has totally earned its place in many of my lists!
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 06:37

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Personally, I'd take one if it were AV5 all round and could only damage stuff by crashing and burning on them - I just love the models so much!

Yep, it's a sweet model. Mine actually did more damage to my own forces last time I used it (dropped 4 pie plates on a squad of Rangers and killed only one, before crashing on a Raider 10" away - the only thing for miles around - fragging it and pinning the survivors!)

I'll use it again. It's too fun not to. But I only pay 130 points for it.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 09:57

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
So in summary my question is, is the Eldar flyer the only one worth bringing?

The Crimson Hunter is a better anti-air unit, that's for sure. It is a pure vehicle hunter though. No Monoscythe pie plates against light infantry.
Against Tau, Tyranids or Daemons, I would either choose a Razorwing or just bring both.

The Void Raven is something I would consider against Space Marines. Implosion Missiles make it expensive, but one of the few reliable anti-MEQ weapons in our arsenal.
And don't fear the Bolter. It hits you only on 6's, it glances only on 6's, and competent Space Marine players won't try and sacrifice a unit's worth of anti-infantry firepower for a slim chance of glancing a vehicle. A Void Raven is not that big a threat, especially after it unloaded its bomb and missiles on the turn it came on.


Last edited by Rokuro on Sun Feb 01 2015, 18:45; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 11:24

Love my RJFs. The turn 2-3 quad blasts always make a mark and have a large number of targets. 2 lances in the air as AA fire is still pretty miserable AA, though. We don't have a very good AA answer in our codex since everything has to be killed by hull points except when you get really lucky.

When my brother takes an air force list, I just crowd his side of the table and wipe out his ground presence and force him to hover or fly off with no targets. The RJFs are simply supporting my ground game.
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 12:46

The razorwing is my new favorite. In both his first two games it annihilated a complete unit (10+ models) the turn it arrived in play. At 130 pts, its a bargain.

After that, if my opponent wants to shoot a missileless jinking flyer, it's less shooting against my venoms, raiders and ravagers.

Now being in the FA slot is great because of the synergy with DL ravagers: T1 antitank is useful to open transports to provide more targets for the missiles.

An finally, the model is awesome.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 13:09

The damage output to points cost of the Razorwing is why people like it. High strength, large blasts with very good ballistic skill makes it an extremely reliable flyer which is cheap in points, comes out of the fast attack slot and with formations you can take up 6 of them. They absolutely dominate infantry units of almost all types and can even put hull points on nearby vehicles like Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimera etc.

The Void Raven is far from loved. While I don't agree, Thor described it as the worst unit in the Dark Eldar codex on the podcast. Its prohibitively expensive but offers tantalizing high strength weaponry. If supported it does well.

Yet like everything in the DE book they need proper support. First off unless you are running into loads of interceptor fire in every game I don't know why you aren't getting in at least 1 turn of devastating fire power with their missiles. The ability to fire 4 missiles the turn you come in should ravage your opponents infantry core when they come in.

Secondly you can' just look at the AV 10 and be like "they suck because they're AV 10". Everything in the DE codex is AV 10, and all the Eldar flyers are as well. My lone AV 10 2 HP Nightwing with a 2+ jink has killed every flyer thats ever hit the table against it and has never been destroyed in over 14 games of play. Why? Because I take out my opponents anti-air assets and force them to deal with everything else. If you can take out their anti-air options Eldar and Dark Eldar flyers can be a nightmare to deal with. As to snap-firing bolters can kill them... if your opponent is going to waste their bolter shots snapfiring on my flyers I couldn't be happier as it takes pressure off my infantry.


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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 15:32

Here's the thing, DE need anti air, not more anti infantry. The only anti air in the DE codex are the flyers so if they cant do that reliably what's the point in hoping to take out air units? The models are amazing don't get me wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 17:00

Quote :

Here's the thing, DE need anti air, not more anti infantry.  
And why is that? How is bringing more anti-air help DE win? I dont see how it does. If our codex had super reliable dedicated AA, that costed arm and a leg, i still wouldnt take it for sure. Like i dont take Crimson Hunter. Cause spending so much on AA hurts the army.

Quote :
The only anti air in the DE codex are the flyers so if they cant do that reliably what's the point in hoping to take out air units?

What cant they do reliably? To explode enemy flyer? There a lot more ways to bring it out of eqasion. After all, flyers are just support. They dont score, they dont block, they dont deny.
If they dont affect ongoing battle on the ground - they are as good as dead.

Also, this game has finite amount of turns, and Flyers do not participate in all of them. If you manage to block its presense even at those turns you have effectively dealt with it. Better to have tool to do it, rather then not having it.

Even by being on the table your flyer protect your ground forces, because opponent will know that if it will not hit it with their flyer, it will hurt his flyer next turn. And the dogfight begins.

Enemy flyers are effective only when they have air superioirty, if that superiority is contested - then they are not effective, and you may procede with what you are doing on the ground. The worst situation is where you pour all your guns at the air.

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Last edited by Azdrubael on Sun Feb 01 2015, 17:21; edited 5 times in total
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 17:01

Because we don't have any anti air other than our flyers.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 17:18

Quote :
Because we don't have any anti air other than our flyers.
Look my previous post. I wouldnt take even if i had the chance. In fact we do have that chance with allies and fortifications. But i still will never take it.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 17:46

Doing pure DE we don't have anti flyer. And bringing in our fighters wont mess up the opponent with 3 heldrakes, 2 storm guppies, eldar flyers, vendettas.
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 20:06

Azdrubael is correct. Even if we had anti-air it wouldn't be worth it, at least in a TAC list. I don't see many eldar players take a crimson hunter...
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?   Sun Feb 01 2015, 20:37

The guy who won the last 1850 tournament I went to took 2 (he beat me on the top table last game).
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