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The Shredder
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PostSubject: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:15

Just curious as to how people handle Flyrants?

Statistically, even without FNP, it takes 12 Venoms to bring one down. And, neither of our fliers is likely to get more than a single wound on one (let alone 4).

So, how do you deal with them?


Last edited by The Shredder on Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:15; edited 1 time in total
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:28

How does a Razorwing with lances, cannon and missiles not seriously cripple a flyrant in 1 pass?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:30

@Massaen wrote:
How does a Razorwing with lances, cannon and missiles not seriously cripple a flyrant in 1 pass?

Can you fire blast-missiles at other fliers? I thought they were immune to blast weapons.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:34

@The Shredder wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
How does a Razorwing with lances, cannon and missiles not seriously cripple a flyrant in 1 pass?

Can you fire blast-missiles at other fliers? I thought they were immune to blast weapons.

Flyers and FMC's have a different version of the Hard to Hit rule (believe it or not). You can fire blasts and templates at FMC's.

Saying that though, the Razorwing still does sod all to the Flyrant.

2 Dark Lances - 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.37 unsaved wounds
Splinter Cannon - 4 hits, 2 wounds, 0.66 unsaved wounds
1 Monoscythe Missile - 0.66 hits, 0.33 wounds, 0.11 unsaved wounds
Grant total - 1.15 wounds not counting FNP or possible Grounding check.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:39

I was thinking about this earlier actually - dont' have the rulebook with me so not sure for definite, but i seem to recall that it's only because you're usually snap firing against flyers that blasts don't work against them?

In honesty I wouldn't was a missile on 1 model anyway, but I'd have to agree to a point, 2 dark lances should cause at least one wound, and the splinter cannon can easily cause another 1 or two (depending on how your opponent rolls armour saves).

I understand your point though shredder, mainly because i never see a single flyrant in a list, they always come in pairs, and I don't bring that many razorwings.

Sitting a ravager on a skyfire nexus is fun, but the best defence is to hammer them before they get in the air - they have to start on the ground so if you have first turn pile all the lance fire you can muster into them.

@Count - are you counting evade to reduce the dark lance fire to unsaved wounds? Surely Dark Lances at AP2 would ignore their armour save?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:41

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Flyers and FMC's have a different version of the Hard to Hit rule (believe it or not). You can fire blasts and templates at FMC's.

There are times when I really hate 40k. Evil or Very Mad

That being said, if you fire the 2 Dark Lances, the splinter cannon and the monoscythe missiles at a flyrant, you're still only looking at 2 wounds - and that's with the optimistic assumptions that it doesn't have FNP and also that both missiles auto-hit.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:50

My personal favourite moment like this was watching a flyrant fail its grounding check whilst being almost directly above a pair of Talos, who then combo charged it and a Trygon in the assault phase, IDing the Trygon and taking the flyrant down to 1 wound.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:02

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count - are you counting evade to reduce the dark lance fire to unsaved wounds? Surely Dark Lances at AP2 would ignore their armour save?

Oops! For some reason I used his armour rather than Jink save. Ups the total to 1.33 wounds, which is not exactly stellar. Especially given that the Jinking Flyrant still causes 1.8 HP to a Razorwing. If the Flyrant goes first, the Razorwing is probably toast!

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:07

Many venoms shooting will also down it eventually - enough flakk in the air and it will die

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:10

@Massaen wrote:
Many venoms shooting will also down it eventually - enough flakk in the air and it will die

Perhaps, but dedicating several venoms to shoot at nothing but the tyrant for the entire game (assuming they even live that long with multiple tyrants flying around) seems like a dubious strategy.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:15

@The Shredder wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Many venoms shooting will also down it eventually - enough flakk in the air and it will die

As I said, even if the tyrant lacks FNP, it takes 36 venoms to take it down.

So, in order to kill it, you would need to have 6 venoms who shoot nothing but the tyrant for the entire game.

Sorry if this doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me. Neutral

Not sure how you're getting to 36 Venoms. Each Venom does 1/3 of a wound (12 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.33 unsaved), so 3 per wound and the Flyrant has 4 wounds = 12 Venoms to take it down in a single shooting phase. That doesn't take into account FNP or the possibilty of damage from failed grounding tests. Also, don't forget that Venoms often carry passengers and they can shoot too.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Many venoms shooting will also down it eventually - enough flakk in the air and it will die

As I said, even if the tyrant lacks FNP, it takes 36 venoms to take it down.

So, in order to kill it, you would need to have 6 venoms who shoot nothing but the tyrant for the entire game.

Sorry if this doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me. Neutral

Not sure how you're getting to 36 Venoms. Each Venom does 1/3 of a wound (12 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.33 unsaved), so 3 per wound and the Flyrant has 4 wounds = 12 Venoms. That doesn't take into account FNP or the possibilty of damage from failed grounding tests. Also, don't forget that Venoms often carry passengers and they can shoot too.

Yeah, I realised my mistake.

But, on the other hand, don't forget that those tyrants can easily kill a venom each turn. Seems like it your firepower will decrease pretty rapidly.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 12:18

I used MSU in the first turns and later battled with what Coven I had left (Cronos and Grotesquerie). That list only had 3 flyrants and 2 Crones but I had enough units that I survived untill T5. Killed everything else. Then those flyrant needed to land And I managed to tie them in cc or kill them. Still a draw.

They are really hard opponents atm.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 13:17

I have played against nids a lot. I found the easiest way to kill them has just been gunboats. 2 raiders with kabs with splinter wracks drops 1 no problem.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 16:41

How about using Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances?
There usually aren't any vehicles in Tyranid armies.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 16:48

@Rokuro wrote:
How about using Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances?
There usually aren't any vehicles in Tyranid armies.

Dissies do about 1/6 of a wound to a non-jinking Flyrant so 2 Ravagers would take off one wound. I'd stick with the Venoms, plus Dark Lances are pretty useful against the Monstrous Creatures.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 17:02

@Rokuro wrote:
How about using Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances?
There usually aren't any vehicles in Tyranid armies.

But I also face other lists as well. tongue
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 17:06

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Dissies do about 1/6 of a wound to a non-jinking Flyrant so 2 Ravagers would take off one wound. I'd stick with the Venoms, plus Dark Lances are pretty useful against the Monstrous Creatures.

I meant Dissies on the Razorwing, so they won't hit only on 6s.

@The Shredder wrote:
But I also face other lists as well. tongue

That's why I magnetize my weapons. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 17:21

As with all other Flyers - just force it to Jink.

If he is FLying this phase - he cant assault next phase. If he is Jinking - his shooting is useless.
Flyrants are threat magnet, if you dedicate your firepower to bring them down - his army marches unopposed. You need to neutralise them, and keep shooting rest of the stuff.

To neutralise Flyrant you need 2 razorwings. And those 2 will never hurt against any army.


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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 18:06

@Rokuro wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
But I also face other lists as well. tongue

That's why I magnetize my weapons. Wink

I meant that I don't know what list I'll be facing when I write my list.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 20:40

Well said Azdrubael. If he jinks, he looses shooting power. Can stop Vector strike u tho so me mindful

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 21:39

@The Shredder wrote:

I meant that I don't know what list I'll be facing when I write my list.

Why write just one list?  I try to take a stable core of units that never change, in your case I would pick 850-1000 points worth that are TAC Based then leave the rest modular so 500-650 points. then you just slot in what you want depending on the adversary.

I would read Reecius's articles at Frontline Gaming about TAC lists in the new edition.  It is his goal to find one but it is like his white whale.  This edition of super heavies and Knights, D-weapons, Flyers, Ect. makes it very difficult but he has great basis of what every list needs to have to deal with the Meta.  

P.S. Always remember to play to the mission, and better tactics can overcome bad match-ups, and a little luck from the Dice gods.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 21:42

Jinking certainly diminishes the Flyrants firepower but it doesn't eliminate it. Twin-linking really helps! I just wish somebody in Commorragh discovered how to twin-link our weapons!

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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 23:08

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Jinking certainly diminishes the Flyrants firepower but it doesn't eliminate it. Twin-linking really helps! I just wish somebody in Commorragh discovered how to twin-link our weapons!

There are stories of five kabalites who sit in a raider and hand out ammo to all the splinterweapon users of the world twinlinking for all
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PostSubject: Re: What do you do against Flyrants?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 23:25

@Grimcrimm wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Jinking certainly diminishes the Flyrants firepower but it doesn't eliminate it. Twin-linking really helps! I just wish somebody in Commorragh discovered how to twin-link our weapons!

There are stories of five kabalites who sit in a raider and hand out ammo to all the splinterweapon users of the world twinlinking for all

That story is a gross exaggeration.

It only takes one kabalite!

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