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 Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 08:52

Does Venom Spam still get played much? Or does the new rules discourage it a lot?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 11:20

Define Venom spam. I regulary use 2-7 in 1850 army.

what new rules?

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 11:35

Jinks etc, specific rules from other armies

Just determining if Venom spam is still worthy way to build an army.

I'm going to build a Wych Cult anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 11:43

@PainReaver wrote:

I'm going to build a Wych Cult anyway.

Good luck with that. In the meantime, you might want to pick up the 2014 DE codex and read up to answer your above question. You'll also find why Wych Cult armies are dead and gone.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 11:54

Is it still viable?: Yes, you can now include more venoms than ever in a list if you truly want to.

Is it an auto-win option: No

Is it the only way to build a decent DE list: No

As others have said, and I have said in other threads, venoms are still a useful tool, but one of many in our toolbox, and their biggest drawback is the combination of jinking to avoid damage making them ineffective, and a fragility that makes not jinking a significant risk to losing the vehicle.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 12:28

@DingK wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:

I'm going to build a Wych Cult anyway.

Good luck with that. In the meantime, you might want to pick up the 2014 DE codex and read up to answer your above question. You'll also find why Wych Cult armies are dead and gone.

Yes I have DE 2014 codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 13:34

@DingK wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:

I'm going to build a Wych Cult anyway.

Good luck with that. In the meantime, you might want to pick up the 2014 DE codex and read up to answer your above question. You'll also find why Wych Cult armies are dead and gone.

Evil or Very Mad
If he wants to build a wych list, then let him and yes he can build a wych list on the basics of venom spam. The problem is then, that both you wyches and your venoms both are supposed to kill infantry. There needs to be stuff in the army that can harm tanks. Reavers could come into play here. Also one or two ravagers with triple lances wouldn't hurt.
That would be a start.
And DingK, not everyone needs to only play with the good choices. It's nice when people play what they actually like.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 14:22

Actually my Wyches are in Raiders, backed up by Trueborns with blasters, and Reavers with Blasters and Caltrops. A sole Rav and double Voidravens for heavy support. Double succy to lead.

As for Wyches my reasoning is that for an extra 2 pts ppm, they get a good grab bag of extra goodies, and the ability to actually assault when you need to (seize objective or tie up). Warriors die just as easily as Wyches to shooting (except against Lasguns, but seeing you'll most likely be hit with 40 of them, and will still rip the warriors to shreds either way). And on turn 4 and 5 they benefit the most from PfP. And chances are they might be T4, or S4, or even have 4 attacks on the charge. You only trade away 1 extra shot from 12" in the case of a gunboat, but by and large still capable of downing a Wraithknight with those pistols. And a 4++ against every assault attack in the game. In addition, Plas Grenades could even threaten a glance on some AV10 vehicle, or chucked on a mob of guardsmen and see them dead. And on a nightfight with Realspace Raiders means I get 4+ cover saves for overwatch against anything not with Night Vision. In a CAD list,

I'm running them in 9s, with a Hekatrix with an Agonizer + a Succubus with Glaive and Haywire. One of the Hekatrixes has haywire and one does not, because Reavers have a way of playing chaos with your point calculations. (Wished they were 15 pts per model, rather than 16)

The reason I asked about the VSpams, was that such a list could actually engage mine pretty well since it has more platforms than i would, and would have more AT than mine.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 14:58

@PainReaver - I like your positivity. I may however question your sanity regarding the idea that 10 splinter pistols are capable of downing a wraithknight. Yes, technically the possibility is there that you will cause 6+ wounds and your opponent will fail all the saves.

On that day, promise me you'll send Megan Fox an email asking her to marry you (or Bradley Cooper if that's more appropriate), because you'll have just hit the jackpot baby!

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:13

If the wraithknight significantly damaged enough then yes.

If I recall Wraithknights have 4 wounds. 10 shoot, of that, 2/3rds hit, so 6-7, and of those 3-4 wound, and 1-2 armor saves failed. And then charge if it doesn't die. If it does die, welp, they've done their job.

I also forgot about the agonizer in that unit of Wyches, who then charge add a couple of extra wounds, plus any lucky sixes. In addition, that Wraithknight isn't off jumping elsewhere wrecking the rest of my list. Considering Eldar has piss poor Assault units barring the Scorpion Exarch...

Before considering Wyches, I had been set on Kabalites. Even have 10 of them already.

And then I actually played a game (500pts), with Kabbies proxying as Wyches after the aforementioned Kabalites got blasted out of a transport and blasted away by Scions. The Wyches charged onto the scions after the raider got wrecked, and with re-roll on distance thanks to Fleet, with the attached Succubi taking a selfie with the head of the sergeant and a #nofilter shot of the unit being sweeping advanced.

Megan Fox isn't exactly my kind of taste. I'm more of a Rinko Kikuchi, Taylor Swift or Lorde kind of guy. As for guys, Vance Joy maybe?

@Count Adhemar- The hekatrix with an aggy will be doing that work, adding an extra wound here and there.


Last edited by PainReaver on Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:22; edited 4 times in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:16

@PainReaver wrote:
If I recall Wraithknights have 4 wounds. 10 shoot, of that, 2/3rds hit, so 6-7, and of those 3-4 wound, and 1-2 armor saves failed. And then charge if it doesn't die.

They have 6 wounds. I think you're rounding up quite alot. 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 failed saves. And I wouldn't recommend charging it as, even with FC you cannot actually damage it outside of a poison weapon (or similar) on your Hekatrix.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:24

Interestingly, 2 gunboats within 12" of a wraithknight should bring it down with reasonable rolling, especially with the help of the dark lances on the front.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:49

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Interestingly, 2 gunboats within 12" of a wraithknight should bring it down with reasonable rolling, especially with the help of the dark lances on the front.

Indeed, although a Wraithknight is pretty much the perfect target for poison weapons as they make him no more difficult to kill than 6 Marines.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:54

You have a point.

I got my strike force ultra thoroughly nobbled by a wraith list last week so I'm looking forward to facing it with my Lilac Destroyers, erm, I mean Dark Eldar!

He may not like that matchup in the same way I didn't like facing an army where just about everything had AP2 guns (heck, even his spiritseer's pistol managed to get a 'rending' wound and killed a storm shield terminator!)

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 17:24

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@DingK wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:

I'm going to build a Wych Cult anyway.

Good luck with that. In the meantime, you might want to pick up the 2014 DE codex and read up to answer your above question. You'll also find why Wych Cult armies are dead and gone.

Evil or Very Mad
If he wants to build a wych list, then let him and yes he can build a wych list on the basics of venom spam. The problem is then, that both you wyches and your venoms both are supposed to kill infantry. There needs to be stuff in the army that can harm tanks. Reavers could come into play here. Also one or two ravagers with triple lances wouldn't hurt.
That would be a start.
And DingK, not everyone needs to only play with the good choices. It's nice when people play what they actually like.



Fully agreed, everyone should do as they please. But he was asking for a versatile list, and as you pointed out a Wych cult is hard to do that with.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 17:58

@DingK wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@DingK wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:

I'm going to build a Wych Cult anyway.

Good luck with that. In the meantime, you might want to pick up the 2014 DE codex and read up to answer your above question. You'll also find why Wych Cult armies are dead and gone.

Evil or Very Mad
If he wants to build a wych list, then let him and yes he can build a wych list on the basics of venom spam. The problem is then, that both you wyches and your venoms both are supposed to kill infantry. There needs to be stuff in the army that can harm tanks. Reavers could come into play here. Also one or two ravagers with triple lances wouldn't hurt.
That would be a start.
And DingK, not everyone needs to only play with the good choices. It's nice when people play what they actually like.



Fully agreed, everyone should do as they please. But he was asking for a versatile list, and as you pointed out a Wych cult is hard to do that with.

I was actually asking if the spam itself is a versatile list, not that I was going to build them, in the event my Wych Cult runs into Dark Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 18:39

@PainReaver wrote:

I was actually asking if the spam itself is a versatile list, not that I was going to build them, in the event my Wych Cult runs into Dark Eldar.

Yeah, that is just about the opposite viewpoint from the one I had. jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 08:52

yes, it is.

And Wyches aren't so bad as people think. They are a 4++ with legs: sounds good to me.
I can take other units to do damage, Wyches are great for their role: blocking other units.

Imho
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 09:23

If they could get into combat to do their role, then yes they'd be fine, not 10 points each fine, but fine.

Problem is they are T3, 1W and outside of combat their save gets ignored by anything more than a slightly vigorous sneeze, so any competent opponent isn't going to let them get there to tie up his expensive powerhouse killy unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 10:22

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
If they could get into combat to do their role, then yes they'd be fine, not 10 points each fine, but fine.

Problem is they are T3, 1W and outside of combat their save gets ignored by anything more than a slightly vigorous sneeze, so any competent opponent isn't going to let them get there to tie up his expensive powerhouse killy unit.

We are Dark Eldar. ALL of our units are fragile.

Yes, they go in CC
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 10:41

@Cerve wrote:
We are Dark Eldar. ALL of our units are fragile.
I know

@Cerve wrote:
Yes, they go in CC

My point is not that they shouldn't be in CC, it's that getting there without getting the entire unit killed is extremely difficult against an opponent who knows how to play and what your strengths/weaknesses are. Even if you go first, they shouldn't be letting your transports get close enough to allow the wyches to charge in the following turn, or they're going to force you to get so close your wych squads will vanish in a puff of blood and flesh, and possibly fire.

I'm not going to derail this thread any further

The trick as i see it with venom spam is getting enough AT into the army at sufficient range to allow your splinter cannons to rule the board in case you come up against a mounted army. It can certainly be done, but in my opinion it makes the list very dependent on the AT working well early on - a few bad dice rolls can ruin its day (wave serpent spam being a particular nightmare for it I'd think).

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 10:45

I wish I could play against opponents who think Wyches are great. It would make a delightful change from double-dreadknights, double-flyrants, Double-Nightscythe, TWC etc.

@Cerve wrote:
We are Dark Eldar. ALL of our units are fragile.

But some are more fragile than others.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:00

One of the lists submitted for the campaign I'm running at club has 3 wraithknights in a 2000 point list.

I really hope I don't draw him in that game, my lists are quite themed and fluffy-ish.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:12

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
One of the lists submitted for the campaign I'm running at club has 3 wraithknights in a 2000 point list.

I really hope I don't draw him in that game, my lists are quite themed and fluffy-ish.

I often use weaker,but in-theme units, too (Wracks are a favourite at the moment). I also tend to give my Haemonculi too much gear - mainly because giving them nothing but WWPs just seems dull.

One of the things I really hate about 40k at the moment is that I feel like I'm being actively punished whenever I try to actually make a flavourful army. This might be less of a blow if the rules didn't vomit up the phase 'Forge the narrative!' every other page. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Is Venom Spam still one of the most versatile lists?   Thu Jan 29 2015, 11:40

Unless the theme happens to be 'all my eldar travel in wave serpents or on jetbikes' in which case everything is golden! bounce

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