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 Would you use wyches if they were cheap?

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Would you field wyches if they were 5 pts?
Probably yes
70%
 70% [ 23 ]
Probably not
30%
 30% [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 33
 

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Elzadar
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PostSubject: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 12:23

So lets see if the problem with wyches is a design problem or if they would be worth it when they're cheaper Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 12:30

90pts obsec venom. Yes please!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 12:32

I probably would as you could do very cheap ObjSec Venom spam and simply hide the Wyches out of LOS for as long as possible.

I'd rather that they were more expensive and actually capable of doing a decent job themselves though.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 12:41

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I probably would as you could do very cheap ObjSec Venom spam and simply hide the Wyches out of LOS for as long as possible.

I'd rather that they were more expensive and actually capable of doing a decent job themselves though.

QFT
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 12:46

Quantum Field Theory ?
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 12:48

I'd probably consider using them if they were 5 pts. At that cost, I could add a Hekatrix w/HWG for the same cost as a unit of Warriors. Or as already mentioned, a 90 point ObjSec unit w/transport would be nice to have in the toolbox, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 14:36

@Hellstrom wrote:
Quantum Field Theory ?
QFT = Quoted for truth.

On topic: I field Wyches at this cost already so yes.
I'm a noob though, so i want to try them out myself.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 14:44

if they had dodge on overwatch i would use them the price wouldnt matter
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 15:13

I think their mechanics are a bit busted. They don't suffer from any attrition well, and small units of 5 wouldn't do much anyways. They aren't strong, they don't have AP, and their only claim to fame is bringing a Venom - which pretty much any unit can do anyways. 4++, even if it was granted in overwatch, is still pretty bad. It takes too many to do any job. I'd only consider them if their rules became more like Daemonettes (Rending attacks, d6+3 runs, raw invuln. save).

The role I'd want better Wyches for will most likely be assigned to the rumored Harlequins when they are released (assuming they are vastly improved upon).
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 17:22

They are cheap. I would use them if they were better even if they were more expensive.

Quote :
The role I'd want better Wyches for will most likely be assigned to the rumored Harlequins when they are released (assuming they are vastly improved upon).
Well, they would do the role even if they are left the same. Given that there is Eldar Unit right now, i think statwise and special rules wise they will stay the same.

And if they'd get DT Raiders and Venoms, and Jetbikes...thats hot.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 18:18

I say no.
Even if they were chesaper, I don't think ObSec is enough. I would want the unit to be useful at something else to make it worth - partly because not all missions use Objectives and partly because I don't think they can hold an Objective is challenged by anything else or even slight worth. Sure, a Venom kicking around can support them, but I think it better to pay for Warriors who can do a little bit more.
Even if I only had a few tiny points left and Wyches were beckoning, I would rather buy a toy for another character than a unit who can effectively do sod all.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 18:20

Hurm, so I could get 10 Wyches w. Aggie in a Raider for 145?
Or 4 Grots w. Aberration w. Scissor in a Raider for 220?
Or 5 Warriors w. Blaster in a Raider for 115?

...No, I probably would still not run Wyches. They're too innefectual at killing things for the point shift. I suppose the ObjSec Venoms are pretty sexy (or ObjSec Raiders, for 85) but for the relatively minor shift of +30 points I can have Warriors in either of those with a Blaster. The Blaster alone is practically worth the 30 points, and toss in the splinter shooting and...meh on the Wyches.

I'm a 'no'.

If I could get the fully loaded Wych w. Aggie setup for around what Warriors with a blaster cost (which would require also lowering the cost of the Aggie and/or the Hekatrix) then I would probably consider them as I think they'd be quite competitive. Say, make the Aggie cost only 10 points and the Hek 5, so I could get a loaded squad at 125 - I would take them then.

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Elzadar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 18:49

I think the point of the aggie is a good one. When they had access to venom blades they could take some cheap but effective upgrades. Now there is no such option.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 19:00

also guys ... guardsmen are 5 points they are much much better than a guardsmen anything less then 8 and you start having to take into account horde tactics and you should not be able to horde something with a 4++ in combat and fnp t2.

8 or 9 MAYBE, storm guardians are 9 and they are actually terrible

People seem to be comparing them to assault units for some reason when our assault units are incubi and grotesques. Wyches are a COUNTER assault unit, they are meant to counter dedicated assault units like assault terminators, nob squads with PK's, anything that hits hard without alot of attacks per model. where they slow and hold really well.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 19:24

@helvexis wrote:
also guys ... guardsmen are 5 points they are much much better than a guardsmen anything less then 8 and you start having to take into account horde tactics and you should not be able to horde something with a 4++ in combat and fnp t2.

8 or 9 MAYBE, storm guardians are 9 and they are actually terrible
No one fields Storm Guardians either Wink

But, to be fair, the question wasn't *should* they cost 5, it was *if they did* would you field them.
I think most people here would be fine with paying more for Wyches if they were adjusted to be 'any good at all'. I am certainly of that number, I pay for Grots, which are pricey as hell - but Grots are good, and therefore worth taking.

@helvexis wrote:
People seem to be comparing them to assault units for some reason when our assault units are incubi and grotesques. Wyches are a COUNTER assault unit, they are meant to counter dedicated assault units like  assault terminators, nob squads with PK's, anything that hits hard without alot of attacks per model. where they slow and hold really well.
I agree - Wyches apparent design use is as a unit with very little use.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Mon Jan 19 2015, 19:45

they only have very little use in current meta of wave serpents and tau. they worked amazingly well as a counter assault unit when people took combat deathstars like nob bikers, TWC, assault terminators, abaddon and his unit etc. Overwatch hurts them yes but what hurts more is the global rulebook being more shooting oriented so people dont take assault units as often as they once did.

Wyches not being good has nothing to do with them being a bad unit, it comes from them being a pointless unit because of the meta involving virtually nothing but guns which is a problem of the rulebook it has nothing to do with our codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 02:34

So why is our counter assault unit the only one that can attack an enemy in cover (on initiative) instead of our assault units?

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 09:50

I've seen the argument brought up that Wych weapons are crap now compared to the 5th edition versions, but at least they are cheaper. For me though, that's no argument for them.
I want my units to be efficient. If they don't help me on the table, they could be 1 point each and I wouldn't be taking them.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 11:45

I *might* field a unit if they were 5pts. If, for example, I wanted an extra venom but couldn't quite afford a Warrior squad.

But, I'd rather pay slightly more and have a functional unit of warriors than pay less for dead-weight.

@helvexis wrote:
also guys ... guardsmen are 5 points they are much much better than a guardsmen anything less then 8 and you start having to take into account horde tactics and you should not be able to horde something with a 4++ in combat and fnp t2.

As an IG player, I really don't see wyches as better than guardsmen. I have a 24" threat bubble for my lasguns, and can take heavy and special weapons. I can also put a priest in a squad to make them fearless and dramatically improve their combat abilities, and use Orders to improve my firepower.

And, bear in mind that Horde tactics requires a horde. Can you even take Wyches in squads larger than 10?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 11:48

@The Shredder wrote:
Can you even take Wyches in squads larger than 10?

Up to 15 if you're so inclined.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 11:52

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
Can you even take Wyches in squads larger than 10?

Up to 15 if you're so inclined.

Outstanding.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 11:59

@helvexis wrote:
they only have very little use in current meta of wave serpents and tau. they worked amazingly well as a counter assault unit when people took combat deathstars like nob bikers, TWC, assault terminators, abaddon and his unit etc.
Nob bikers were last a thing back in early 5th, though TWC had a longer run they, also, were around back then. People still take assault terminators (and TWC). I will agree that Abbadon isn't taken anymore.

I would say half of what you listed is still taken by players nowadays. Also, Buddy Bike Star is still a thing, as is the Centurionstar, the Screamerstar only just went away, the same with the Jet Council.

I do not recall the Wyches from the old codices ever being a good option against any of that (well...actually I rather liked them versus Jet Council, they were decent at slowing that mess until Baron showed up)

The thing is - Wyches used to inflict more damage. Straight up.
They also used to take less damage - because you used to be able to start them with FNP 4+ or not have to worry about overwatch (or both, depending on the specific point)

Even in 6th Edition, and in 7th Edition, I was taking units of Wyches in my army - because they were still survivable and were fairly affordable to get some special weapons on to help them grind down things they locked up (also grenades, natch - but they had other uses in my army as I was usually fine in the shooting war)

I don't take wyches anymore.

I agree that this edition favors shooting.
I still take assault units even to this day, and consider them important to have in my list.
I don't take Wyches though.
It's not because assault is bad, and it's not because shooting is better (though I would tend to agree both of these things are true)
It's because Wyches are designed poorly.
You could take Overwatch out of the game right now - I still wouldn't play Wyches.
You could give me back old wyches from either previous dex, and I would take Wyches as an assault tool with an intent of assaulting infantry.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 22:28

IVE DONE IT, i figured out a special rule that would make them bearable! ---Can assault after deepstriking--- we can dispute that other models could do more with it, but to make them worth taking id do it. So what if they suck they can suck and gurantee the enemys scary shooty guys are locked down

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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 22:33

@Grimcrimm wrote:
IVE DONE IT, i figured out a special rule that would make them bearable!   ---Can assault after deepstriking---  we can dispute that other models could do more with it, but to make them worth taking id do it. So what if they suck they can suck and gurantee the enemys scary shooty guys are locked down

How are they deep striking in the first place?
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PostSubject: Re: Would you use wyches if they were cheap?   Tue Jan 20 2015, 22:36

@The Shredder wrote:
How are they deep striking in the first place?

Raider, venom, Webway portal. Pick one or use em all i like the last one
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