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 The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar

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Barnie25
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PostSubject: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:23

Hi guys after taking a break from the game after 7th hit, I've decided to start a force again. I used to play Eldar but right before 7th hit I started plans to build a Dark Eldar force. This obviously didn't happen as I stepped away from the game after the new edition hit.

As a former Eldar player I notice that I have trouble properly assessing both the impact of the changes regarding the casting of psychic powers and the Dark Eldar codex as a whole. There is no consensus regarding the powerlevel of the codex, some really despise it while others advocate the codex as being playable.

In 6 weeks I will have a tournament which I am gearing up for. The tournament will be 1250 points, no super heavies allowed and a two flier cap. I managed to buy a unassembled Dark Eldar force containing roughly the following:

2 Venoms (1 assembled without the cannon underneath..)
3 Raiders
2 Ravagers
5 Reavers
50 something warriors with a few dark lances but no blasters that I could find
10 wyches

Lelith Hesperax
Succubus

After reading about the new codex, competitive builds I started to compile some builds with the units which I own I feel like I lack alot which I used to rely on playing Eldar:

-Psychic superiority (Farseers)
-A center piece model which forces your opponent to deal with (Wraithknight)

Do you guys feel that it this point level (1250) allying in a psyker would be beneficial? Or what would be wise to add to my army? I really like the grotesque models but they are finecast and rather expensive so they are probably out. Trying to fit in a Dark Artisan formation in 1250 has been rather difficult as it would force me to take a second HQ next to the mendatory haemonculus which to me seems useless as it wouldnt add a lot unlike investing in a psyker as second HQ that would add something that my list wouldn't already possess.

I hope that this post isn't to incoherent and that you people can help me Very Happy
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:47

@Barnie25 wrote:
2 Venoms (1 assembled without the cannon underneath..)

I'm sorry, WHAAATT?!?!?!

Don't think I registered anything after I read this.

I think that's the first time, in over 4 years of the existence of venoms, that I've ever heard of anyone not taking 2 cannons on them! lol!

Seriously though, not having psykers or stuff like wraithknights is kind of an essential part of the character of our army - we tend to address it by taking more units instead. Even if you take Dark Artisan (and I wouldn't at 1250pts) you're tying up around a third of your army into a unit that has minimal shooting, and can't guarantee to charge anything either (well, maybe 1 unit if you deepstrike them). Their main benefit is soaking up fire, but at that points level you need everything to be dealing damage too.

Psychic powers I'm afraid you'll just have to suck it up - you can take a crucible if you want to hurt the psyker's bodyguard, or the helm of spite if you're feeling, well spiteful to be honest - doesn't make cancelling powers easy, but it is fun when they peril on any double and kill their psyker (or in the case of one of my games, don't bother trying to cast anything just in case).

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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:52

Speaking from my limited experience as a fairly new player I wouldn't bother with a psyker. As often as not they don't really do all that much, in fact in one of the latest batreps in this forum an eldar psyker ends up killing himself after failing twice to turn himself invisible. Plus, you'd have to pay some sort of troop tax since it's an ally.

I'd focus instead on our own strong units. I'd definitely use the venoms, put 5 warriors in each and you're already good to go and covered your mandatory troop choices.

With that many raiders and warriors I'd probably take 2 gunboats and give the last raider to your HQ (see next paragraph).

If you like grotesques see if your TO allows conversions and score either some rat ogres off eBay or buy the Blightkings box. A unit of grots would go well with your succubus as a warlord imho.

If you buy another Venom and see if you can build some Blasterborn I'd say you have yourself a solid core.

Lastly, while I love the Dark Artisan I'd be weary at this point level like you said, as after you deep struck them they're not exactly fast and can be avoided.
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 14:06


I think an allied autarch is more useful than one allied psyker. If you want psykers you need enough to effect the game. Otherwise they will likely get denied and add little to your game. So if I want enough die I'm almost forced to go Eldar as primary. The autarch on the other nhand is always a useful addition.

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Barnie25
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 14:10

I agree that its a bit sad that the cannon is missing. Maybe I will try and fix in somehow if I can find the bits, then it might look ugly but then at least it would be useful to field them.

I was considering to maybe run a unit of Wraithguard with D-scythes or Wraithcannons to deepstrike along side a WWP Succubus and Spiritseer. The succubus would give them some nice AP2 in combat and the Spiritseer could give them some nice buffs. I wouldn't suffer from the core tax as they Wraithguard would be core.

A different approach would be to field two Razorwings for some nice air support which would probably be quite potent at 1250 points.

I would like to run a melee unit but I can't seem to find a good way to field Grotesques without spending a lot of money. Either you buy the finecrap models or try and convert them which is in the end just as expensive but for your trouble you'll get multi-posible plastic models. Incubi and wyches are not worth it correct?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 15:43

Quote :
I would like to run a melee unit but I can't seem to find a good way to field Grotesques without spending a lot of money. Either you buy the finecrap models or try and convert them which is in the end just as expensive but for your trouble you'll get multi-posible plastic models. Incubi and wyches are not worth it correct?

Not at all...
Buy Warmahordes Warspears -> € 35
Buy GW Talos kit -> €35
Buy a bit of sculpting mass (you just need a tiny bit and no modelling skills)

you get:
4 Grots + Abberation
1 Talos (you just need masks and chronos parts)
for around € 105 less than 5 GW Grots.

Looks like this:



Last edited by Klaivex Charondyr on Thu Jan 15 2015, 18:05; edited 1 time in total
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Barnie25
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 15:59

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:


Not at all...
Buy Warmahordes Warspears -> € 35
Buy GW Talos kit -> €35
Buy a bit of sculpting mass (you just need a tiny bit and no modelling skills)

you get:
4 Grots + Abberation
1 Talos (you just need masks and chronos parts)
for around € 105 lett then 5 GW Grots.


With sculpting mass you just mean green stuff? These models look rather nice. Its worth the consideration Smile
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 15 2015, 16:56

I did basically the same conversion, however I used wrack heads as I liked the encephalitic look of having the really small heads on the really large bodies - truly gives the appearance that the musculature has been kicked into overdrive.

The warspear conversion is very simple - slice of the faces & greenstuff the helms of your choice on (the talos kit gives you about 5-6 extra heads, the wrack kit gives you 6. If you're careful with your triming you wont actually need greenstuff, unless there's anything else you want to add / cover up.

Also, a small unit of incubi with klaivex (don't bother with his upgraded weapon) is actually pretty far from useless. with the fact that transport explosions no longer result in wrecks, and proper objective placement, the lack of grenades isn't as crippling as many on the internet will tell you. And the klaivex has up to 7 attacks on the charge at S4, WS/I:6 and AP2.... (8 attacks if he's charging late game with rage... and after turn 4 he's S5!).

wyches however, are close to useless. I'd use the models as lahmians if I were you - same profile, less the dodge save, same cost, and poison 2+ with lethal dose? Chuck 5 of them in a venom and throw them at a hive tyrant / wraightknight / riptide. If you win, you win big. If you lose, you lose 50 points so who cares?
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 09:45

As someone who played against a 17 mastery level demon list leaving me unable to stop both his invisible flying demons and his endless summoning which put about 600 points on the table for him, my opinion of the psychic phase can't be voiced on a family friendly forum.

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 12:21

I think the Psychic Phase is largely overrated.

The thing is, Mastery Levels cost points, and a lot of Mastery Levels cost a lot of points! And I simply don't think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

My experience stretch to CSM only, so I'll go from there. Level 3 with Spell Familiar is 125 points. This will grant you 4-5 powers. You will get an average of 6-7 Power dice to cast them. That means you can reliably expect 2-3 powers to go off each turn, depending on Warp Charge cost. Then you have to factor in a couple of things. 1) The possibility of being Denied. It is ever-present, and if you play against another Psyker, the odds increase largely, and if you play against a psychic powerhouse, like a daemon summoning army or Grey Knights, you might as well stop trying = 125 points for a standard Marine with 2 wounds. 2) Perils of the Warp. Most Psykers have 2+ Wounds to mitigate this somewhat, but it's still a very real possibility, that your Psyker will have killed himself before the end of the game. 3) Rolling good powers. I can't count the number of times I've been stuck with the crappiest powers the discipline has to offer. Sure, it's isn't completely worthless to save your fleeing Cultists by making them Fearless for a turn, but it's definately not worth 125 points.

Consider then, that for the cost of one of these Psykers, we can buy 24 range 36" poison shots in the form of two Venoms, or something equally dangerous? Is it possible for a Psyker to cause more damage? Sure. But you cannot discount the value of reliability in your list. You will always know exactly what you can get out of your Venoms. You can never be sure what you'll get out of your Psyker.
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 12:55

The psychic phase in 7th is hideous. It's very clearly been balanced and tested for those games where both players have only a couple of mastery levels of psyker... i.e. I have a level 2 Blood Angels librarian and my opponent has an Eldar farseer. There, it works fine. And D6+ mastery level for dice means that in similar situations (My aforementioned Librarian vs your psykerless Necrons) you still have a fighting chance of blocking a spell. But when one side spams mastery levels (Daemons and Grey Knights, mostly looking at you here, regular Space Elves to a lesser extent) it becomes uncounterable unless you're playing a similar style.

TL;DR version - allying in one Psyker won't give you enough of a boost to be worth it, as you'll still be in the 'fair' category, and it won't give as much help to denying opponents powers if they're also in the 'fair' category. Better off just ignoring the psychic phase and loading up on more things to murderkill your opponent in the face with.

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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 13:34

Quote :
The psychic phase in 7th is hideous. It's very clearly been balanced and tested for those games where both players have only a couple of mastery levels of psyker... i.e. I have a level 2 Blood Angels librarian and my opponent has an Eldar farseer. There, it works fine. And D6+ mastery level for dice means that in similar situations (My aforementioned Librarian vs your psykerless Necrons) you still have a fighting chance of blocking a spell. But when one side spams mastery levels (Daemons and Grey Knights, mostly looking at you here, regular Space Elves to a lesser extent) it becomes uncounterable unless you're playing a similar style.

That sounds way more balanced then in 6th. Gone is the prescience bots, HQs who are taken just to cast that single psychic power. It is fluffy to, if you try to battle Farseers or Greater Daemons on a psychic field, you are screwed.

There is quite a dynamic with psychic powers in 7th. It looks like this
1) If you are taking more then one psyker and facing lists with single or no psyker you are fine. YOu will probably cast powers, you will probably not kill yourself, but that is still possible.
2) You have psychic army (eldar, gk, da with formation, daemons) you stomp on all other armies with little psychic presense in terms of manifesting powers, and you stall with psychic armies, dice flowing around lots of denies happening, lots of perils hapening.
3) You are taking single prescience bot, or guide farseer. You are getting countered by psychic armies and armies who take more then one psyker and you cant counter them. You will not manifest psychic powers against such armies reliably.

Now to the topic at hand, i doubt you want to make DE with some heavy psychic allies. Means Eldar with Warlocks in squads. The easies way for DE to deal with enemy psykers is to shoot them dead, not deny them. Also there will be many situatuins when you will face more then token psychic presence and in those situations single farseer will be close to useless, meaning you are handicaped by 100+ points.

That is why chaplains now makes an apearance instead of librarians. Non psychic supprt HQs works more reliably now. So if you are taking allies, eldar allies, you are better off with Autarch.

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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 14:32

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Barnie25 wrote:
2 Venoms (1 assembled without the cannon underneath..)

I'm sorry, WHAAATT?!?!?!

Don't think I registered anything after I read this.

I think that's the first time, in over 4 years of the existence of venoms, that I've ever heard of anyone not taking 2 cannons on them! lol!

Ha you can call me the second one Razz

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Barnie25
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 15:33

Yeah its a bit sad but probably I will use the cannon from the Razorwing box and convert into the venom. Should be fine.
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 15:40

Imho, if you can field psy in good numbers (10+ lvls) go for it, if you are taking a farseer only to have a psy, mainly in a TAC list, it's just a waste of points, any GK, daemon and most eldar list will just deny all your powers most of the times. Take an autarch instead or take only DE.
If you plan to face an opponent fielding 1 or 2 psy, taking a seer could be funny though. Very Happy

Last week I beat a daemon factory with 20+ psy levels (fateweaver, DP, pink horrors, screamerstar with 3 herald) with no psy nor psy counter (helm, etc.). Usually summoned units cannot shot (daemons basically only run in that phase) or assault, they only grant field control and an infinite boredom every turn Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: The importance of Psykers in 7th and Eldar allies for Dark Eldar   Sat Jan 17 2015, 17:57

@Barnie25 wrote:
Yeah its a bit sad but probably I will use the cannon from the Razorwing box and convert into the venom. Should be fine.

I wouldn't leave the Razorwing with just a Splinter Rifle either though.
The Talos might be the best source. He comes with a twin-linked Splinter Cannon, which is not really the best weapon for him.
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