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 Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?

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Ispa
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PostSubject: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 04:11

I am contemplating loading my unit of 4 grots (with succubus with AB,AoM) with some liquifiers.
However at 15points a gun for template S3 AP- are they really worth having?

Even put a WWP on the succubus and drop in next to a unit and blow them up with liquifiers.

But it all is becoming VERY exspensive unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 04:25

For Grots I tend to favor either a single Liquifier or none. It's an okay weapon and has some use, but is too expensive for what it does and is more of a sometimes tool than something worth spamming. There are too many targets it is feth useless against for that.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 09:23

Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts? No

Shall we close this topic now? Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 11:31

Not even remotely worth it.

S3 with random AP isn't worth 50% more than a Heavy Flamer (I don't think its even worth the same as a heavy flamer).

Even if they were guaranteed AP2, I'd still struggle to justify them because S3 is such a crippling limitation.

But I guess they have the potential to kill marines and so have to cost 3 times as much as would be reasonable.
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 11:57

I'm reminded of Thor's Drazhar thread in which Thor asked if Draz would be worth taking if he cost half of current points.   I think Liquifiers would have to cost 1/3 of their current cost to even consider taking.  And I'm not totally certain they would be worth it even at that point total.  Strength 3 is just too bad to pay any amount of extra points for in our anti-infantry heavy army.  What's crazy is that the Liquifier costs as much as the Medusae flamer which has better Strength and guaranteed AP 3 (assuming the Medusae herself is 10 points).
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:36

The other aspect, of course, is opportunity cost. Liquifiers aren't available to normal warriors (which have anti-infantry firepower anyway).

In the previous codex, I could include a Haemonculi with a liquifier gun for a mere 60pts - which wasn't a bad price to add a S4 APd6 template to a squad, as well as giving them FNP 5+.

Now, it costs me 85pts for a S3 APd6 gun and only gives the squad FNP 6+ at the start. That's a hell of a price-hike and also a hell of a nerf to both those things.

Similarly, in the previous book I could have 5 Wracks as troops with a S4 APd6 liquifier gun for 60pts. Now, it costs me 65pts for a S3 gun and, more importantly, I have to take them as Elites.

TLDR: Not only have liquifier guns been nerfed in and of themselves, but the units that can take them have also been made far less cost-effective - Haemonculi having increased in cost by 20pts (and can no longer take 3 per HQ slot), and Wracks being stuck as elites.
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:45

If your meta is very horde heavy, then maybe. Otherwise definitely not.
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:48

@Jimsolo wrote:
If your meta is very horde heavy, then maybe. Otherwise definitely not.

Even then, I'd say still not worth it. You need to be close to use them and will likely only get one shot before being overrun (2 if you count overwatch). And that shot could still be AP6 and will still be S3, so you're probably not going to do much anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:57

The old S4 10pts versions were not worth it nor are the new ones. Perhaps for Wracks in the old dex but a big no no for Grots in both books.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:58

If you're facing hordes, probably better off using Razorwings or a couple of medusa courts.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:21

@Jimsolo wrote:
If your meta is very horde heavy, then maybe. Otherwise definitely not.

@Vasara wrote:
The old S4 10pts versions were not worth it nor are the new ones. Perhaps for Wracks in the old dex but a big no no for Grots in both books.

I think they were worth it on Haemonculi and Wracks, but not on Grotesques, no.

Now they're not worth it on anything.

@Jimsolo wrote:
If your meta is very horde heavy, then maybe. Otherwise definitely not.

Even against Hordes, I think we have better options:

- Grotesques can put out a ton of attacks that will usually be wounding on 2s or 3s with rerolls.
- Medusae have flamers with better strength and AP3 (which should be sufficient against any units that can be hoarded).
- Cronos can put out a S3 AP3 flamer and a S3 AP3 large blast. Though, even as I say this I'm doubting that it's worth it.
- Gunboats can put out a ton of shots (you could even give Shredders a go O_o).
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:25

I think it says a lot about Liquifiers when someone considers Shredders over them. (Even if that someone does happen to share their name.)

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:35

For grotesques that ligufier cost a cc attack in addition to points. Thats way too much.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:39

@Erebus wrote:
I think it says a lot about Liquifiers when someone considers Shredders over them. (Even if that someone does happen to share their name.)

Indeed.

Partially, it goes back to opportunity cost and role. If I have a gunboat of Warriors, then they're already putting out anti-infantry shooting by default. Normally, I'd go with a blaster (for utility) or nothing. But, if I'm against mainly horde armies, for 5pts I'd be willing to at least give Shredders a go.

However, liquifiers are only available on:
- Talos (in exchange for an attack... no)
- Haemonculus (Too high an opportunity cost to bother with for this)
- Grotesques (if the liquifiers do nothing, then you've wasted 15pts per model. If they do work, you've quite possibly crippled your charge.)
- Wracks (If I want to go next to something and flamer/assault it, why not just take some Grotesques and cut out the need to flamer my target? Plus, it competes with the Ossefactor - i.e. the only weapon that makes Wrack squads even worth considering).

@Vasara wrote:
For grotesques that ligufier cost a cc attack in addition to points. Thats way too much.

I want to punch whoever was responsible for the layout of this codex. "Hmm, it says here Grotesques can just take liquifier guns - they don't have to exchange a weapon for them. Splendid."

"Oh, nevermind, they do have to swap a weapon for liquifiers. It's just that the haddock who wrote this codex decided to put that detail on an entirely different page." Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:44

@The Shredder wrote:
I want to punch whoever was responsible for the layout of this codex. "Hmm, it says here Grotesques can just take liquifier guns - they don't have to exchange a weapon for them. Splendid."

"Oh, nevermind, they do have to swap a weapon for liquifiers. It's just that the haddock who wrote this codex decided to put that detail on an entirely different page." Evil or Very Mad

I'm not normally one to leap to GWs defence but the Grot entry in the codex seems pretty clear:

• Any model may replace their close combat weapon with a liquifier gun…xx pts

Where's the confusion here?

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
I want to punch whoever was responsible for the layout of this codex. "Hmm, it says here Grotesques can just take liquifier guns - they don't have to exchange a weapon for them. Splendid."

"Oh, nevermind, they do have to swap a weapon for liquifiers. It's just that the haddock who wrote this codex decided to put that detail on an entirely different page." Evil or Very Mad

I'm not normally one to leap to GWs defence but the Grot entry in the codex seems pretty clear:

• Any model may replace their close combat weapon with a liquifier gun…xx pts

Where's the confusion here?

Yup, although many of the entries do state 'may take x'. Can't count how many times I've had to point out to people that the wargear list requires you to exchange the weapon for an existing one, even if the datasheet entry doesn't. Scourges I seem to recall are the main offender?

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 14:01

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
I want to punch whoever was responsible for the layout of this codex. "Hmm, it says here Grotesques can just take liquifier guns - they don't have to exchange a weapon for them. Splendid."

"Oh, nevermind, they do have to swap a weapon for liquifiers. It's just that the haddock who wrote this codex decided to put that detail on an entirely different page." Evil or Very Mad

I'm not normally one to leap to GWs defence but the Grot entry in the codex seems pretty clear:

• Any model may replace their close combat weapon with a liquifier gun…xx pts

Where's the confusion here?

Yup, although many of the entries do state 'may take x'. Can't count how many times I've had to point out to people that the wargear list requires you to exchange the weapon for an existing one, even if the datasheet entry doesn't. Scourges I seem to recall are the main offender?

If it says "May take items from the Fancy Ticklesticks list" then you need to do whatever that list says in order to take the item. If however, it simply says "May take item x" then you don't need to replace anything, even if item x also appears on a wargear list that normally requires you to replace another item.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 15:42

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not normally one to leap to GWs defence but the Grot entry in the codex seems pretty clear:

• Any model may replace their close combat weapon with a liquifier gun…xx pts

Where's the confusion here?

Apologies, I must have been thinking of a different unit - possibly scourges

I know some of them just say "may take items from the special weapons list", implying that they don't have to swap out their existing weapons. But, you then go to the special weapons page and find that they, in fact, do have to trade their weapons.

*shrugs* it just seems like 'replace' should be on the model's page.
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 15:57

I am so relieved by this thread. I still see people here talking about piling liquifiers into units, and while I think it was worth doing that in the last two codices, I think liquifiers are terrible now. You're spending a lot of points to probably not wound a lot of models, and then you roll the dice to not penetrate their armor after all the not wounding.

It's particularly infuriating because I've loved liquifiers since 3rd ed.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 16:04

IMO Liquifiers should be Poison (4+), AP D6 and cost 5-10 points.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 16:10

when a marine gets a S4 AP5 weapon for 5 pts, i see a S3 AP? weapon for 15 and think No

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 16:29

@Count Adhemar wrote:
IMO Liquifiers should be Poison (4+), AP D6 and cost 5-10 points.

That would be good.

I've also heard a suggestion that their strength should be equal to the firing model's toughness.
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 17:55

Str of the user makes sense fluff wise and would make them worth 5-10pts ide say.

Equipping grotesques as the OP suggests; its tempting if you lacked alot of ap3 or less, just so the grots don't get bogged down vs good saves......15pts tho....think i'de rather take an aberration with rending for a little extra, or hell, you could have a squad on incubi by the time your done equipping a few
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 19:41

Wishlisting is futile...

So meanwhile I'll add my 2 slaves (cents in mon-keigh tongue)

Liquifer gun: 15 points

Strenghts: no cover, template (auto-hit), AP1D6 so 1/2 of the times will hurt MEQs and 1/3 will hurt TEQ, AP is rolled per weapon, not per unit. Aaand wall of death.

Weakneses: strenght 3 (still with autohits wounds T4 the same times as a splinter shot without rerolls), no torrent so flamer range only, unreliable AP

Ways to improve: get many of them to surpass random AP and/or poor strenght and obtain good results, use delivery system (vehicle or WWP), Prometium Relay Pipes to get torrent fire mode.

Platforms and opinion...

Haemonuculus: 3 arms so doesnt sacrifice an attack. Fits perfectly when using a WWP because you can max the hits you inflict.

Wracks: you can get 3 in a 10-man unit or 2 in a 5-man unit. 10 with an haemy and WWP gets you up to 4 which can erase a devastator or any MEQ unit with ease in just one turn. Wall of death is also fun to have if you get charged. This unit is more effective moving from cover to cover and objective secured means nothing if they get near you. 10 in a Raider (3LG) or 5 in a Venom (2LG) fun to use because of open-topped fire points rule, allowing you to get the most from the templates. Also you still get Wall of death from it. You lose an attack for each LG but it's just wracks so...

Grotesques: you lose a poisoned S5+ attack with ID on 6s and your sweet spot is combat. Also you should be charging every turn if not already in combat and people will stay away from you. Try this: put LGs on them once and don't do it the next time, if you miss them then I'm wrong. Then there's the WWP build were you get to shoot the turn you can't charge, and if you DS in a good position you'll be able to shoot and then charge the next turn. Maybe it's a good way to perform the most damage possible with your grotesques and hurt TEQ more easily, if you don't have Incubi or a Succubus nearby.

Talos: you lose a S7 attack (and also lose the chance to get other CCWs) but the LG is twin-linked so rerolls to hit which is nice. Stil just one is not reliable for the AP, but against hordes is fine. If you run multiple Talos they will stay away from you as if you carried the plague, so you can lose your shots running or only shot the tail weapons as they have more range...

Dark Artisan: the WWP and 3 template build (including the spirit syphon) is a fun way to use this formation and lets you get rid of MEQs easily even when camped in their deployment zone.

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifiers. Are they worth 15pts?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 20:36

Yeah, it's not looking good for a Liquifier, it seems. While not absolutely awful, there are better and easier ways to deal with the solutions they bring to the table. Having a unit devoted solely to "liquifying something" doesn't seem to have a great place given what you'd be after. Flamers typically do better on units that don't want to assault or be assaulted. The only true advantage of a liquifier is that is can ignore cover, something nothing else really offers in the codex (sans a Void Mine, which acts as barrage and can ignore a signficant amount of cover when placed correctly). So if it excels at lower toughness, poor armor, cover-hungry models - what models are you scared of that make you want them in a list? They seem like a tool to scare other Dark Eldar more than to deal with Dark Eldar's foes.
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