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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Jan 28 2015, 11:31

Wasn't there a 5 point increase for wraiths?
Night Scythes are even more expencive than that 30 points as 5 warrios is not available anymore.

Scarabs got better as they can now eat WK:s too.

So expect Wraiths, Barges, and scarabs. (A deja vu?)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Jan 28 2015, 11:59

Can't believe they buffed Wraiths! What universe do they live in that thinks Wraiths need any sort of boost? TH/SS Terminators are probably crying into their helmets at the moment. For 5 points less than their cost, Wraiths get 12" move, ignore terrain, fleet, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1I, +1A,+1Ld. Okay they "only" have 3+ rather than 2+ but that doesn't really matter that much on multi-wound, high T models and they have the 3++ to fall back on against any AP2. Only thing they lose out on is 2 S8, AP2, Unwieldy attacks instead of 3 S6 Rending attacks at Initiative.

One thing I did notice though is that the D-Lord is now Jetpack rather then Jump so he can't keep up with the Wraiths as well as he did before. With the nerf to MSS that might mean fewer D-Lords but will almost certainly mean more Wraiths!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Thu Jan 29 2015, 18:49

I think the big news is that 95% of what was predicted to happen did happen; wraiths being the only exception to this (and there's always one exception to the rule - in our book it was probably reavers...). Tesla is far less scary, meaning the army is far easier to suppress and since MSS aren't as effective, fighting necrons becomes a bit less of an issue. Of course the changes to reanimation protocols offsets this a bit as you'll be winning combats by a smaller margin, which makes it less likely necrons will be caught in a sweeping advance. Of course Chaos marines still fall prey to sweeping advances very frequently (at least mine do...) so only time will tell how big a buff this really is for their army - obviously immortals are quite survivable now with a 3+/5++(4++)

All in all, aside from Wraiths, it looks like necron damage output potential has actually decreased due to the increase in cost of their vehicles and the changes to Tesla's effectiveness. I would suggest that the battle plan of sitting back at 36" & targeting wraiths / spiders / scarabs with venoms, while putting shots on their quantum shielded vehicles with lances will be just as effective as always. Remember that 'crons don't have fast skimmers and they're for the most part ranged out at 24"
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Thu Jan 29 2015, 21:49

I posted this in your other thread about Flyrants in response to your statment about you don't know what you will face when you write your list. However the post was meant for here as much as there.


Why write just one list? I try to take a stable core of units that never change, in your case I would pick 850-1000 points worth that are TAC Based then leave the rest modular so 500-650 points. then you just slot in what you want depending on the adversary.

I would read Reecius's articles at Frontline Gaming about TAC lists in the new edition. It is his goal to find one but it is like his white whale. This edition of super heavies and Knights, D-weapons, Flyers, Ect. makes it very difficult but he has great basis of what every list needs to have to deal with the Meta.

P.S. Always remember to play to the mission, and better tactics can overcome bad match-ups, and a little luck from the Dice gods.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Sun Feb 01 2015, 12:21

Scariest new change is the Obelisk. 300 points nets you AV14 superheavy that makes flyers difficult terrain test, and 4 tesla orbs with 5 shots each that can independently target. Oh and Living Metal which got buffed all to hell.

2 ABarges are now 260... for 40 more points, you don't have to jink and you get more shots. This thing can be taken on it's own in it's own little formation, too. You can run 5 for only 1500 points. FIVE. Terrifying.
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Sun Feb 01 2015, 22:18

So, I've read the new necron book yesterday and I have to say I'm torn. I think it is true that their damage output got reduced dramatically by the nerf to tesla, MSS and scarabs. On the other hand a lot of things got a lot worse. The new reanimation makes them extremely survivable, wraiths receiving a buff (even at a small point increase) is plain ridiculous and there's a lot more nasty stuff in the book. Too much to put all in one post here. But I see it like this: Necrons were and will still be a top tier army with competetive play, and DE might struggle against that, because they just got even tougher to remove and we don't like it when we can't remove stuff fast.

To me the "gem" of the Necron dex is this: Orikan the Diviner + Lychguard (shields optional) + optional additional lord with solar pulse (one use, unit can only be snap shot at for a turn). A full unit + Orikan costs you 370/420 points depending on loadout, has a potential close combat monster with powerful Orikan in it (once he powers up he's S7 T7 ... all at AP2 at initiative) and the unit itself is not bad either. The biggest thing though is their survivability. The unit got T5, 3+ armor, potentially 3++ invulnerable and then their 4++ Reanimation roll afterwards. And because of Orikan they get to reroll all 1s on saving throws... math-hammer that out yourself, the unit is a pain to remove. Our only boon is that we can stay away from it with relative ease.

Comparing the Necron treatment to our very own new dex, I feel very bitter, but that's a whole different story.

Just my 2 cents.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Sun Feb 01 2015, 22:39

Quote :
To me the "gem" of the Necron dex is this: Orikan the Diviner + Lychguard (shields optional) + optional additional lord with solar pulse (one use, unit can only be snap shot at for a turn). A full unit + Orikan costs you 370/420 points depending on loadout, has a potential close combat monster with powerful Orikan in it (once he powers up he's S7 T7 ... all at AP2 at initiative) and the unit itself is not bad either. The biggest thing though is their survivability. The unit got T5, 3+ armor, potentially 3++ invulnerable and then their 4++ Reanimation roll afterwards. And because of Orikan they get to reroll all 1s on saving throws... math-hammer that out yourself, the unit is a pain to remove. Our only boon is that we can stay away from it with relative ease
.
Sure it's a tough unit. But for us (Dark Eldar), it's really not that bad. 11 models with 3+ save /4+ RP. Load it up with poison as you would anything else. They pay premium points for T5 and 3++, and we pretty much ignore both.
And the same goes for Wraiths in my book. Sure, I can no longer instant kill them with lances, but then again, I don't remember ever firing a lance their way anyway. My go to solution for them were always the massive wall of poison, and that is exactly as effective as before. Their high initiative doesn't bother me, as I won't win any fights with them anyway, should they get close enough.
I'm very happy to see the Scarabs nerfed, though. Those were a real pain to remove with poison due to them finding cover easily and having tons of wounds. Now they're more expensive and a considerable amount worse, so I don't expect to see nearly as many of them.
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Feb 02 2015, 17:53

Well, statistically speaking that unit takes one casualty once every 36 wounds caused, as long as Orikan is alive. That means 72 hits which is 108 shots with BS4. So statistically it is as survivable as the unkillable screamer star, just not as fast. Our best bet will be to ignore it, which thankfully we can, since we're fast. A lot of armies will have no means of effectively dealing with that unit since it just walks through most things, except feeding it units to keep it busy.

While they removed some stupid mechanics and brokenness from the book, which is great, I don't think the book is properly balanced externally (against other armies) at all. Again, just my opinion though.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Feb 02 2015, 19:05

Your math is way off. Admittedly so was mine, though. I didn't calculate Orikans reroll 1 on armour save.

One Venom = 12 Shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1.56 unsaved wounds = 0.78 dead Lychguards.

That is 15-16 shots for a kill, which IS fairly good survivability, but nowhere close to the 108 shots you arrived at.

Matching it up with 420 points worth of Venoms (rounded down), that would be: 72 shots = 48 hits = 24 wounds = 9.33 unsaved wounds = 4.67 dead Lychguard.

Note that I choose to ignore the Solar Pulse, because I would simply ignore the unit and shoot something else the one round it would work. Also note that if you can possibly position yourself at an angle where Orikan takes the hits, he is a lot easier to kill than the rest.
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Feb 03 2015, 11:55

D'oh. Such a huge miscalculation. Guess that's due to doing such stuff late after work. The correct calculation is 2/3*1/2 for the number of wounds and then 1/3*1/2+1/6*1/3*1/2 for failed saves due to only rerolling the result of 1... I accidentally calculated with every save rerollable. Sorry for that.

Your new math is correct. Statistically it needs 15,43 poison shots to kill one lychguard, totally not as bad as I made it out to be. Still that unit is something to watch out for, even though it might not be particularly tough for us. T5 and basically not caring abut AP value with the shield makes them tough for say marines/guard to kill.

We'll see how the new dex plays out, but I still doubt they got any weaker as a whole, but stronger.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Feb 03 2015, 12:40

@Dogmar wrote:
To me the "gem" of the Necron dex is this: Orikan the Diviner + Lychguard (shields optional) + optional additional lord with solar pulse (one use, unit can only be snap shot at for a turn).

Throw in an Overlord from a Reclamation Legion with the Nightmare Shroud, Phylactery and Phase Shifter and you have a T5 character with a rerollable 2+ armour save, 4++ (reroll 1's) and 4++ (5++ against ID) Reanimation Protocols (reroll 1's) and 5+ IWND to tank anything that comes at the unit. He would be functionally immune to anything that wasn't AP1 or 2 and extremely hard to damage against anything that is. That would probably make this unit the toughest unit ever to appear in a game of 40k.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Feb 03 2015, 18:51

The new necron dex has me terrified they now have the best counter assault unit in the game (flayed ones) if they take decurion have a 4+ fnp across there army that only weakens by one if you instadeath them, overall they have become harder to kill.

I dont know why but they got buffed directly to top tier of 7th, when i heard they were doing necrons dex i said to my friend who played them "i hope you dont get hit too hard man" and  now his codex isnt nerfed its better than before. Mind shackle scarabs  and tesla guns were their only true nerfs everything else was a balance or Buff.

ive run the math hammer on so many of their units time and time again, we do not have the gear to reliably fight them so in a slugout we lose. go for points and pick apart anything that has long range weapons, AND not that i need to tell you guys this (we are dark eldar afterall) KEEP MOBILE.

Units to look for:
-TOMB BLADES KILL THEM DO IT NOW they can and WILL ignore cover.
-Canoptek wraiths dont let these guys get close they are another unit worth shooting at and if they are near a spyder kill the spyder first.
-Flayed ones do not charge these with equivalent points they WILL win (no joke ive run the numbers against every elite assault in the game charging into them and they win EVERYTIME) keep mobilized if your opponent has these in reserves, if he has them on the field stay out of there charge range.
-Immortals and warriors will only reliably go down to blaster and darklance fire otherwise be ready to dedicate far too many poison shots to make them notice you.
-Ghostarks and Spyders are great support units that will keep their survivable army even more so, dedicate fire to these when you can.

Do not enter melee with large necron squads, incubi have a chance against small squads and grotesques  have the number of attacks to rip small squads to pieces BUT ONLY small squads, The talos is the only unit we have that can reliably fight them in melee i do not advise sending him against any melee forces they have.

These are some of the most important things i can tell you. Sorry for rant at the top.

There is much im forgetting if there is any unit in particular you want to know about just ask

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Feb 03 2015, 21:29

Methinks there's a lot of panicing going on here.... The loaded to the tits lychguard unit some of you are discussing is now a ~450-600 point unit... (after characters) that moves 6" per turn *yawn* even my chaos marines don't care about that.

- Regarding tomb blades - meh, jetbikes. They of course will ignore cover, but other than that, they're just space marines... nothing special there
- Wraiths always were scary, moreso now that you can't ID them
- Flayed ones? You still wont see them in competitive lists because, even with a bajillion and one shred attacks... they're still too slow to matter against anything but maybe broadsides (and get them there...) or guard (who'll still probably massacre them with a properly built blob w/ power axes & a priest)
- Immortals are tougher than space marines.
- Warriors are effectively space marines, but gauss gives them more effective shooting against anything T8+ or AV11+ (only our ravagers care)

remember that almost everything went up in price, and the beefcake HQ's all got really toned down in effectiveness. Minimum troops are more expensive since warriors are 10+ now, meaning Immortals may be the go-to's for min-maxers, all the barges are more expensive, flyers too....

It is still WAY to early to tell what's going to work & what isn't - beyond wraiths. They're still a no-brainer - but really aren't anything worse than two space marine bikes welded together - do you struggle against white scars? I don't...
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Feb 03 2015, 21:30

As I said elsewhere, unlike the other recent codexes, this one seems to have gone straight to Eldar levels of silliness. Absolutely unbelievable survivability coupled with tremendous firepower AND brutally good melee. I strongly suspect we are looking at the new top dog. I'm not sure even Eldar and Knights can do what's needed to take these guys down.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Feb 03 2015, 22:12

Yeah the 4+ reanimation protocol against anything that is not remove from play is brutal (the fact that it works against instant death is rough). Combined with their armour 13 transports that replenish casualties and you have troops that just wont die! Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 02:50

What i need to get across is everyone will have problems killing their basic models now, aim for their support or get tread over.

And watch out for the tomb blades they will wreck your vehicles and they ALMOST move as fast as we do.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 08:05

@Grimcrimm wrote:
What i need to get across is everyone will have problems killing their basic models now, aim for their support or get tread over.

Yeah wasting shot against warriors near arcs is pointless (especially if they have 4+ reanimation from their detachment). Everything is very tough in this army! It puts terminators to shame...

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 09:08

@Mushkilla wrote:
It puts terminators to shame...

Terminators have been shameful for a long time now, I only still take them because I love the models so much and I'm stubborn (me, not the special rule)

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 09:28

I'm wondering if close combat might be the only option. Ram a Corpsethief Claw, Grotesquerie and Dark Artisan down their throats whilst slamming into them repeatedly with Cluster Caltrop'd Reavers.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 09:56

Our high initiative and -2 leadership/fear from armour does a number on them, it means we can run down whole squads and make them W1 most of the time. Close combat is definitely the way to deal with them!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 10:54

@Mushkilla wrote:
Our high initiative and -2 leadership/fear from armour does a number on them, it means we can run down whole squads and make them W1 most of the time. Close combat is definitely the way to deal with them!

I should be playing against the new 'Crons tonight so will see how that goes. Using Dark Artisan and some Reavers (amonst other things).

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 11:08

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:
Our high initiative and -2 leadership/fear from armour does a number on them, it means we can run down whole squads and make them W1 most of the time. Close combat is definitely the way to deal with them!

I should be playing against the new 'Crons tonight so will see how that goes. Using Dark Artisan and some Reavers (amonst other things).

Sounds great! Be sure to report here about the good, bad and the ugly Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 11:53

Will do. I'll try to take some pics and do a batrep.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 13:34

mush wrote:
Our high initiative and -2 leadership/fear from armour does a number on them, it means we can run down whole squads and make them W1 most of the time. Close combat is definitely the way to deal with them!

Not convinced we have any unit that will beat wraiths or flayed ones. And even warriors can tar pit with buffs - res orb 4+ etc. I will crush some numbers ansd see how the count does. But I'm not sure cc is the best route.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Feb 04 2015, 14:02

@egorey wrote:
Not convinced we have any unit that will beat wraiths or flayed ones.

Flayed Ones are going to struggle against the Dark Artisan. They need 4's to hit and 6's to wound and I get 3+ armour and 4+FNP (reroll 1's) against anything that gets through. I know they have boatloads of attacks and rerolls to wound but even a max size unit only does about 2 wounds to me on the charge and I strike first, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's (Talos), 3's (Cronos) or 4's (Haem). I calculate that I should kill about 3 of them on average before they swing, reducing that damage further and also meaning that they lose combat.

Wraiths are a tougher nut but in both cases I would hope to whittle them down with shooting before I get into combat.

Will let you know how it goes.

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