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 Looking for help against necrons

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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 19 2015, 20:03

Re: Grey Knights list

bear in mind that what you're really facing is 22(23?) terminator wounds and 10 space marine wounds. Of those terminators only 1 model has a 3++, the rest are stuck with 5++ unless they "waste" warp charges on sanctuary. I really don't care for the list you're running as you have a whole lot of points in the grotesquery units I wouldn't really recommend spending - I would cut the gear from the raiders, the champions and the scissor hands (also from the haemonculus).

If you're going second against that list, you're going to be in trouble no matter what you do - with either the grotesquery or the dark artisan formation you have the potential to deploy some models which are capable of weathering the alpha strike potential and striking back - Dark Artisan can make mincemeat out of the terminator unit, and the grotesquery can as well if he forgets to charge up Force (even if he does, and is not inside terrain you're striking simultaneously with anything except daemon hammers). Deploy the grotesquery at the edge of some terrain, outside of their raiders and see which unit is targeted.

Keep the venom's in reserve and (praying for good reserve rolls!) deploy tight to your board edge to encourage the use of shunt moves Turn 1, keep venom's in deepstrike reserve as with a 36" range (18" if you want to fire blasters) you're able to deepstrike safely, if he takes the bait & shunts, deepstrike in a way that you're confident to be within range with the splinter cannons, but scatter across the field so that he'll have to spent turns getting to one venom, then the other.

As you've identified the scourge are fairly useless except as objective grabbers or speed bumps, choose what you feel is to your best advantage - either use as Ob grabbers, or deploy them in such a way as to force any shunt moving dreadknights to keep out of range of your more important deployed units - positioning them 30" ahead of a dreadknight, such that he can't land on them & maybe allows you to keep a unit out of LOS behind some terrain, etc...

You really need to focus on one dreadknight then the other - losing a single venom really impacts your ability to force wounds on the 2+ saves and the dreadknights are the units which are the most likely to be able to kill them due to their volume of high strength shots.


One of the other things to note is that dreadknights are characters, so you can throw a challenge with your succubus & potentially soak a few wounds due to the invulnerable save.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 19 2015, 20:33

@clever handle wrote:
bear in mind that what you're really facing is 22(23?) terminator wounds and 10 space marine wounds.  Of those terminators only 1 model has a 3++, the rest are stuck with 5++ unless they "waste" warp charges on sanctuary.  

Sanctuary really isn't a waste though - especially when it gives Draigo a 2++. And, it's not like he's short of warp charges...

@clever handle wrote:
I really don't care for the list you're running as you have a whole lot of points in the grotesquery units I wouldn't really recommend spending - I would cut the gear from the raiders, the champions and the scissor hands (also from the haemonculus).

I'd actually like to run just one unit of Grotesques, but I don't want to run them from the DE book. And, if I use Coven, then I'm either using 2 Grotesque units (with this formation), or a unit of Grotesques and a unit of Wracks, plus a second Haemonculus (with a Coven detachment).

As above, I'm thinking that I should just drop the Grotesquerie altogether and save it for larger games.

@clever handle wrote:

If you're going second against that list, you're going to be in trouble no matter what you do - with either the grotesquery or the dark artisan formation you have the potential to deploy some models which are capable of weathering the alpha strike potential and striking back - Dark Artisan can make mincemeat out of the terminator unit, and the grotesquery can as well if he forgets to charge up Force (even if he does, and is not inside terrain you're striking simultaneously with anything except daemon hammers).  Deploy the grotesquery at the edge of some terrain, outside of their raiders and see which unit is targeted.  

Bear in mind that Draigo is striking at I5 with a S7 AP2 force weapon - S9 with Hammerhand. So, he can easily kill the entire Dark Artisan formation or most/all of the Grotesques before they ever get to swing.

@clever handle wrote:

As you've identified the scourge are fairly useless except as objective grabbers or speed bumps, choose what you feel is to your best advantage - either use as Ob grabbers, or deploy them in such a way as to force any shunt moving dreadknights to keep out of range of your more important deployed units - positioning them 30" ahead of a dreadknight, such that he can't land on them & maybe allows you to keep a unit out of LOS behind some terrain, etc...

You really need to focus on one dreadknight then the other - losing a single venom really impacts your ability to force wounds on the 2+ saves and the dreadknights are the units which are the most likely to be able to kill them due to their volume of high strength shots.


One of the other things to note is that dreadknights are characters, so you can throw a challenge with your succubus & potentially soak a few wounds due to the invulnerable save.

I'll bear that in mind.

Out of interest, do you think this list would be better (against that list or just in general)?:

1500pts:
Covenite Fleshcorps Formation:
- Haemonculus Silence w/ Scissorhands, Hexrifle, Panacea Perverted, Vexator Mask (Warlord)
- 5 Wracks w/ Ossefactor, Acothyst w/ Hexrifle, Raider w/ Dark Lance
- 5 Wracks w/ Ossefactor, Raider w/ Dark Lance
- 5 Wracks w/ Ossefactor, Raider w/ Dark Lance
DE CAD:
- Archon w/ Blaster, Haywire Grenades, WWP
- 5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Scourges w/ 4x Heat Lance
- Razorwing Jetfighter w/ Dark Lances, 2 Shatterfield Missiles

The Haemonculus goes with the Hexrifle Wracks and the Archon goes with the Scourges.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 19 2015, 20:52

I really, REALLY don't like wracks and don't think I'd ever use them except in the scalpel squadron.

That being said, I recognize that Draigo is a beast (he is a LoW after all). And I wouldn't ever recommend charging a full strength unit of GK terminators. Assuming he combat squads his grey knights, that list is bringing 10 warp charges stock. so after 4 at gate, 2 on force weapons on the terminators, 2 on hammerhand, that still allows one unit to beef up with sanctuary (or lose force / hammerhand). It really depends on how the opponent is playing - is he sinking all those warp charges in preventing you from charging his unit of terminators? If so, good. Shoot the dreadknight that doesn't have sanctuary up with any AP2 you've brought.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that both this list & the necron list would be better suited if you were able to bring more lance weapons to bare - both QS vehicles AND T4/2+ models don't like getting shot by lances... If you're really only worried about these two lists, I'd suggest that this may be the one and only time I'd suggest bringing the voidraven - the bomb will make short work of a terminator deathstar that has hit you with gate of infinity, and is of course S9 lances are very effective against 'cron (careful deployment is necessary to ensure you're out of LOF of his death croissants the next turn!)
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 19 2015, 22:49

@clever handle wrote:
I really, REALLY don't like wracks and don't think I'd ever use them except in the scalpel squadron.

I know where you're coming from, but I'd like to include one of the Coven Haemonculus formations. Crying or Very sad

It just seems like the Wrack ones are the least vulnerable to MSS and Force Weapons. They let me bring 3 Raiders (i.e. 3 Dark Lances) and, unlike Grotesques or DA, aren't wasted when not in combat.

@clever handle wrote:
That being said, I recognize that Draigo is a beast (he is a LoW after all).  And I wouldn't ever recommend charging a full strength unit of GK terminators.  Assuming he combat squads his grey knights, that list is bringing 10 warp charges stock.  so after 4 at gate, 2 on force weapons on the terminators, 2 on hammerhand, that still allows one unit to beef up with sanctuary (or lose force / hammerhand).  It really depends on how the opponent is playing - is he sinking all those warp charges in preventing you from charging his unit of terminators?  If so, good.  Shoot the dreadknight that doesn't have sanctuary up with any AP2 you've brought.


But, bear in mind that it's 9-10 Warp Charges +d6 from the psychic phase.

@clever handle wrote:

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that both this list & the necron list would be better suited if you were able to bring more lance weapons to bare - both QS vehicles AND T4/2+ models don't like getting shot by lances...  If you're really only worried about these two lists, I'd suggest that this may be the one and only time I'd suggest bringing the voidraven - the bomb will make short work of a terminator deathstar that has hit you with gate of infinity, and is of course S9 lances are very effective against 'cron (careful deployment is necessary to ensure you're out of LOF of his death croissants the next turn!)

Interesting. Which (if any) missiles would you recommend for the 'Raven?

Also, Raven aside, would it be any help if I swapped the 2 Blaster Trueborn for Warrior squads with a blaster each (still in venoms) and added in a Ravager?
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 19 2015, 23:02

Oh I know about the +D6... Just remember that looking at all these powers, we haven't even talked about what the librarian is bringing.... right now we're looking at him being a Lvl 3 character who contributes.... 2 wounds and some warp charge dice....


Looking at your new proposed list in more detail, again I really don't like the wracks & You're spending some 200ish points (don’t even know how much the weapons cost since I think wracks are that bad….) across 15 models.
I would suggest in lieu try a list along the lines of:

Succubus w/ glaive, helm (or armor of misery, your choice) – NO grenades!
(4) Grotesques, Lance Raider
(2) units of Trueborn w/ Blasters in Venom
(2) units of warriors w/ blasters in venom
(1) Unit of scourge w/ (4) special weapons, heat lance or haywire, your choice
(2) Lance ravagers
Voidraven, stock.

At 1500 points this gives you approx 50 points spare to provide upgrades throughout the list.

I think this list provides a better balance of firepower against the two lists you've identified as a problem while maintaining the bulk of what you've included. I'm not a big fan of the blaster trueborn. That's an expensive squad for (5) T3 models bringing 4 lances, especially considering no retreat wounds mean that squad is toast once one of those dreadknights clip the venom with their template.

Again, I think in particular with the playstyles of these two list you're up against, the voidraven is a good idea (scary to admit that....) as both the deathmark squad and the GOI terminator squad really, REALLY, doesn't want to eat a S9, AP2 blast template
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 19 2015, 23:21

@clever handle wrote:
Oh I know about the +D6... Just remember that looking at all these powers, we haven't even talked about what the librarian is bringing.... right now we're looking at him being a Lvl 3 character who contributes.... 2 wounds and some warp charge dice....

I think he sometimes has the book that lets him reroll 1s with Warp Charges. He might have a Daemonhammer, too.

Regardless, you make an interesting point.

@clever handle wrote:

Again, I think in particular with the playstyles of these two list you're up against, the voidraven is a good idea (scary to admit that....) as both the deathmark squad and the GOI terminator squad really, REALLY, doesn't want to eat a S9, AP2 blast template

Good point. Are any of it's missiles worth taking?

@clever handle wrote:

I think this list provides a better balance of firepower against the two lists you've identified as a problem while maintaining the bulk of what you've included.  I'm not a big fan of the blaster trueborn.  That's an expensive squad for (5) T3 models bringing 4 lances, especially considering no retreat wounds mean that squad is toast once one of those dreadknights clip the venom with their template.

I know what you mean, but they always seem to pull their weight in my list.

What would you suggest replacing them with?

@clever handle wrote:
Oh I know about the +D6... Just remember that looking at all these powers, we haven't even talked about what the librarian is bringing.... right now we're looking at him being a Lvl 3 character who contributes.... 2 wounds and some warp charge dice....


Looking at your new proposed list in more detail, again I really don't like the wracks & You're spending some 200ish points (don’t even know how much the weapons cost since I think wracks are that bad….) across 15 models.
I would suggest in lieu try a list along the lines of:

Succubus w/ glaive, helm (or armor of misery, your choice) – NO grenades!
(4) Grotesques, Lance Raider
(2) units of Trueborn w/ Blasters in Venom
(2) units of warriors w/ blasters in venom
(1) Unit of scourge w/ (4) special weapons, heat lance or haywire, your choice
(2) Lance ravagers
Voidraven, stock.

At 1500 points this gives you approx 50 points spare to provide upgrades throughout the list.

I think this list provides a better balance of firepower against the two lists you've identified as a problem while maintaining the bulk of what you've included.  I'm not a big fan of the blaster trueborn.  That's an expensive squad for (5) T3 models bringing 4 lances, especially considering no retreat wounds mean that squad is toast once one of those dreadknights clip the venom with their template.

Again, I think in particular with the playstyles of these two list you're up against, the voidraven is a good idea (scary to admit that....) as both the deathmark squad and the GOI terminator squad really, REALLY, doesn't want to eat a S9, AP2 blast template

Thanks for the advice and the suggested list (though, I only own 1 Ravager).

You're right - that does seem like a stronger list. But, it's more than a little depressing that I have to take out everything I like if I want a decent chance at winning.

I think it might be better if I just stuck with IG for this edition.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 20 2015, 00:07

I wouldn't put any missiles on the voidraven - drop your bomb then strafe w/ S9 lances; on the board then back into reserve on Odd turns. It is a lot of points for what really amounts to (hopefully!) 7 S9 lance shots, but against GOI and necron vehicles (at least for the next 2 weeks until their book comes out!) the S9 lances are a godsend.

I think the wracks CAN work. Don't have the rule book in front of me, but the ossefactor is an ID weapon correct? Thus taking a scalpel squadron could be effective against the dreadknights - one wound gets through on a 4+ and he's out! However, that doesn't provide much benefit agains the necron unit, since the big problem is trying to disembark their troops by effectively terfing the resilient vehicles. And I'm not a big fan of hoping for a 22% chance of success (2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3) on a single shot weapon...

Ultimately, I think that you CAN be effective against both armies with the list you are proposing - against the necrons you're really relying upon the grotesquery to complete a lot of your anti-tank as the quantum shielding doesn't protect rear armor from getting punched a heck of a lot at S5+; and against the GK you can do very well provided that (a) you're able to dictate his target priority with good deployment and lucky reserve rolls.

Unfortunately, it will take more than the 4 venom's you're planning on bringing to reliably take down even a single dreadknight. That means you NEED all 4 to be functional for multiple turns, or you need to have some extra-ordinary luck. I GUARANTEE you that his first target will be the blaster-born since they bring the firepower to reliably punk his terminators AND the dreadknights.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 20 2015, 11:54

@clever handle wrote:
I wouldn't put any missiles on the voidraven - drop your bomb then strafe w/ S9 lances; on the board then back into reserve on Odd turns.  It is a lot of points for what really amounts to (hopefully!) 7 S9 lance shots, but against GOI and necron vehicles (at least for the next 2 weeks until their book comes out!) the S9 lances are a godsend.  

Ok.

@clever handle wrote:
I think the wracks CAN work.  Don't have the rule book in front of me, but the ossefactor is an ID weapon correct?  Thus taking a scalpel squadron could be effective against the dreadknights - one wound gets through on a 4+ and he's out!  However, that doesn't provide much benefit agains the necron unit, since the big problem is trying to disembark their troops by effectively terfing the resilient vehicles.  And I'm not a big fan of hoping for a 22% chance of success (2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3) on a single shot weapon...  

I fear the Ossefactor is not an ID weapon. The Hexrifle is... but only on 6s to hit and even then it's still only a sniper rifle - so half of those 6s will fail to wound and 2/3 of the ones that do won't ignore its 2+ armour save. Boy, do I love our codex. Rolling Eyes

@clever handle wrote:

Unfortunately, it will take more than the 4 venom's you're planning on bringing to reliably take down even a single dreadknight.  That means you NEED all 4 to be functional for multiple turns, or you need to have some extra-ordinary luck.  I GUARANTEE you that his first target will be the blaster-born since they bring the firepower to reliably punk his terminators AND the dreadknights.  

Unfortunately, I only have 4 Venoms at the moment.

What would you suggest? Deep-striking the blasterborn? Giving them Raiders and using the Venoms elsewhere? Dropping them for something else (if so, what?)?
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 20 2015, 18:31

yeah, I looked up the ossefactor when I got home last night.... still, being AP2 and fleshbane means that it can put that last wound fairly reliably - better odds than I was giving it, onto a dreadknight... all the more reason for me to second guess taking wracks (as I've said, I don't like the unit so I've never really paid too much attention to their wargear, they just scream inefficient & Frankly, I've never been that charmed by the idea of running a full coven force)

If you have extra raiders just laying around, I think you could probably find a way to put at least one blasterborn squad in a raider & then simply add a fast attack venom, or a transport for your HQ just to allow you more saturation of targets - as I mentioned, by taking out the superfluous upgrades from your grotesque squads I think you're close to 50-60 points already - the list I proposed had about 50 points spare, so some fine tuning could get you to the inclusion of another venom.

The decision to deepstrike or hold in normal reserves really comes down to terrain and deployment I think. If you're able to position yourself so that you're baiting a shunt move turn one, and are able to have your units come in from the board edge relatively scattered *but still in effective blaster range, I would suggest doing that as you'll have more control over being inside blaster range and not risking scattering out of range; that being said, if you're not going to be able to deploy centrally, or are going to need the extra space then deepstriking is the way to go. Basically you want to ensure that his army will need to spend a turn moving towards one of your units, and then at least another turn to the next, and the next, etc. That way he's reacting to you, and with a grey knight player with only 7 units, is unable to focus on killing your units and maximizing scoring on maelstrom objectives (if you're playing a maelstrom mission).

But for this type of tactic to work it is absolutely imperative that you're able to manage to kill one of the dreadknights with your first salvo - else he'll be able to split up and each dreadknight can control half of the board with the threat of nuking a squad of blasterborn as soon as it gets into range.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 26 2015, 23:27

With regard to Necrons, looks like MSS are no longer an issue - they now cause Fear in a challenge. lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 26 2015, 23:48

@The Shredder wrote:
With regard to Necrons, looks like MSS are no longer an issue - they now cause Fear in a challenge. lol!

If that's true then I'm a happy bunny!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Mon Jan 26 2015, 23:58

Also YAY for tesla not causing extra hits when snapfiring! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 08:43

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
With regard to Necrons, looks like MSS are no longer an issue - they now cause Fear in a challenge. lol!

If that's true then I'm a happy bunny!

Although from what I read you take the test on 3D6?

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 08:53

Plenty of ways to avoid Fear though, whereas there was no defence against MSS. Plus the effects are far more benign.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 09:04

True. Guess there's even more reasons now to take a few coven units to bolster the army, spreading haemonculi love around your combat units!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 09:45

With the amount of fearless and ATSKNF in the game I can't see many necron players spending 10pts on wargear that won't work in most games. The same reason we don't field soulfright weapons and they have a much better effect than fear!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:01

Fear, like Soul Blaze, is one of those things that none of the people I play with ever remember. On the rare occasion that we do, it has little or no effect.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:04

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fear, like Soul Blaze, is one of those things that none of the people I play with ever remember. On the rare occasion that we do, it has little or no effect.

Forget opponents, I very rarely remember stuff in my own army that has fear!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:18

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Although from what I read you take the test on 3D6?

Yep, which doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Anything in my army that fears MSS will also be fearless by turn 2 at the latest (more likely turn 1).
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:40

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fear, like Soul Blaze, is one of those things that none of the people I play with ever remember. On the rare occasion that we do, it has little or no effect.

Forget opponents, I very rarely remember stuff in my own army that has fear!

Same here. I take the Armour of Misery most times and have yet to actually ask my opponent to take a Fear test!

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:47

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fear, like Soul Blaze, is one of those things that none of the people I play with ever remember. On the rare occasion that we do, it has little or no effect.

Forget opponents, I very rarely remember stuff in my own army that has fear!

Same here. I take the Armour of Misery most times and have yet to actually ask my opponent to take a Fear test!

I did once - the first time i used it just after the codex was released and I was checking everything against the book.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 11:05

I think those small stuff are very important. They may not win you every game, but every once in a while comes the time when single fear test or soulblaze makes the difference.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 11:26

@Mushkilla wrote:
Also YAY for tesla not causing extra hits when snapfiring! Very Happy

This... combined with Anni barges and sythes being 30 pts more has made me a very happy archon!

Sure they got some good buffs but the above limits crons manoeuvrability further and out manoeuvring is how DE win! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Tue Jan 27 2015, 23:33

Actually, from what i've seen (do not own the cron book already, just relying on ppl telling they do) the crons got even stronger than before.
They lost some of the cheesy, OP tricks, but they got much stronger imho.
Anni barges are 30pts more, but bargelords got 35 cheaper, so if you're taking 3 and 2 you spend 20pts more, not that overpriced.
All the spammed units got nerfed more or less (flyer spam, teleporting court, tesla a bit itself) but all the unused units got much stronger. They could get the better bikes in 40k at the cost of ours, 3+jinking/5++/5+++ of the brand new reanimation protocol, shootin tesla with ignore cover. HoW is nice, but damn i would love these instead of reavers.
We will just see different lists but atm i think crons could be the best 7th ed. codex so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for help against necrons   Wed Jan 28 2015, 07:11

Wraiths became beasts (so gained fleet), became T5 and still have a 3++. No points increase. Yes they buffed wraiths... Fun times... means our lances are wasted against them (no instant death), but on the bright side our poison couldn't care less.

The codex is definitely not as strong as the last one. The nerf to tesla and MSS alone ensured that. Very Happy

Night Scythes still put transported units into ongoing reserve if they are destroyed, and can still deploy units anytime during their move however if they moved more than 24 the deployed unit can only snap shot. They are also still dedicated transports.

Whip coils now only add +3 to the initiative of the model during the fight sub phase so our I6+ units will still strike before wraiths (if they are not charging through cover/have grenades).

Entropic strike also got nerfed it now just auto wounds/glances on a six (so scarabs can still scare monstrous creatures/vehicles).

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