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 Giving My Opponents Something to Kill

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40kScribe
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PostSubject: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:01

This might sound cocky, but I don't play Dark Eldar much anymore because my opponents get slaughtered and the handshakes at the end of the game can be bitter. So I thought that I should consider making my army a little more fun for my opponents to play against. Currently I run venom spam:

- 7 Venoms with two Splinter cannons, filled with Kabalite Warriors and a blaster each (one has an Archon and 4 Lhamaens)
- 3 Ravagers with Dark Lances
- Farseer on a jetbike with Mantle of the Laughing God (Eldar allies)
- 3 Windrider Jetbikes (Eldar allies)
- Wraithknight (Eldar allies)

I was thinking of taking out the Wraithknight and Farseer and fielding 20 Eldar Guardians (possibly Guardian Defenders) accompanied by an Avatar of Khaine to make them Fearless, then rush them forward up the board. I figure this'll have three effects:
1. My opponents will feel like they've hurt my army when/if they lose and,
2. It'll distract my opponent from firing at my Venoms and possibly from my Ravagers
3. I can camp an objective to attract firepower and who knows -- the unit could survive

Don't get me wrong: I don't win all my games, but I win a lot of them and by fairly large margins. So like I said, I'm aware that this discussion I've started might come off as cocky but again, I do get tired of seeing bitter faces after I've crushed some of my opponents with my current list.

Thoughts?


Last edited by we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k on Tue Jan 13 2015, 04:31; edited 1 time in total
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 04:26

I'm not sure what you're asking for thoughts on - basically you want to create a slightly less quality army or something? Or an army that's easy to get kills on?

Your old army looks easy to get kills on, so I feel I'm missing the thrust here.

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 04:30

I'm asking for thoughts on:
- the idea of running a 20-man fearless blob
- running a slightly less efficient force
- generally making my venom spam list more fun for opponents to play against

No most people don't get that many kills on my army (although they'll normally get a Ravager, maybe two -- and some Venoms), thus the idea is that if I can still win, but devote some points to helping my opponents feel accomplished without wasting my points (i.e., by keeping it fun for me to use something gimmicky), then people might be less bitter when they lose
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 05:32

They're having trouble killing stuff in your list?

Might I suggest that the issue is maybe in your opponent's lists and/or tactics and not in yours. I consider myself an above average player and all evidence seems to support this belief, but I certainly tend to lose a fair shake of units in most any game I play against a semi-competent opponent because, well, DE are pretty easy to kill.
Do they have weak lists/make bad play decisions in your opinion?
In all honesty I don't even think your list is that intimidating.
I would suggest that the best way to have better games is to try to help their lists/play not dumb down your own.

To your specific points;

1. The idea of a 20 man blob is 'meh' any decent list should be able to roflstomp it easily. Though...maybe that's a thing for your opponents Very Happy

2. I disagree with this as a way to make more fun. If I was your opponent I would feel molly-coddled and offended. That said, if your opponents lack models/experience you could easily adjust the types of matches you're having to give them a better chance without having to underplay/design.

3. What are they not having fun with it for? As far as I can tell it's the 'not killing things' concept. Well...Venoms are *very* easy to kill. If your foes cannot kill a few Venoms then they are, flat out, playing weak lists. Do they lack long range anti-tank or something? Or are only bringing it in weird ways (like a few lascannons scattered about and nothing else). A Dread in a droppod w. some heavy flamers ought to be able to eat up at least a unit or two in your core list without even requiring anything beyond the most basic of strategy, so I'm not sure what the issue is and feel it must be poor army design/model availability or something, which will not be solved by running an infantry blob w. Avatar in my opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 06:03

If you're facing a spate of sub par opponents, I think rather than hamstringing your list you should impose a handicap on yourself.  Just field 5-20% less points than the limit (depending on how cocky you feel) without saying anything.  That way you're training YOURSELF on how to cope with unexpected losses, slow-pitching for your opponent, and sparing their feelings.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 07:00

As Thor said dumbing down your list would add insult to injury in my opinion. Find better opponents who run reasonably competitive lists like bellow:

Space marines (chapter tactics iron hands) - 1500pts

Master of Forge
6x 5 marines with a lascannon, razorback with twinlinked assault cannons
3x Predator with twinlinked lascannon and lascannon sponsons

However, there are option available to you if finding better opponents is proving troublesome. Running a list that is more tactically challenging than venom spam would be the next direction I would consider. This will improve your skill as a player whilst at the same time giving your opponent a chance to capitalise on the mistakes you will make with a more challenging list. The other option if you want to stick with venom spam, is dropping eldar allies.

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 07:33

I think the issue people are having is simply the feeling of getting steamrolled. To be honest sometimes I beat them so bad that, as fun as it is to win, I kinda feel bad about it (sometimes they get tabled). I like the idea of playing with a percentage-based points handicap though Smile

I've been proud to secretly play at 1800 points in 1850 point games throughout 6th ed so I think I'll go back to something similar. The other thing is that I think that people look at my list and they think it's cheese but I have to say that I really do enjoy Venom spam (fluff and gameplay) so that's not changing -_- although I do like the idea of dropping some of my Eldar allies (namely the Wraithknight) and instead choose to go with some fun yet deadly stuff (I've been looking at the Dark Eldar flyers for a while)

About your points, Thor:
1. Perhaps throwing in some Reavers accompanied by an Autarch on a jetbike might be more fun than a Wraithknight. Any leftover points could go towards more fun shenanigans like a flyer

2. I used to agree but honestly, the look on peoples' faces sometimes make me think that they wish I had toned it down a notch in my list-design lol it's as if they wanted to play a video game on 'normal' mode but are stuck on 'hard mode'

3. I can't actually say why people aren't having fun; I can't read minds if you see what I'm saying. I just hear them moan all game, give me sour looks and a bad handshake at the end. Been playing 40k for years and never got such sour responses although sometimes I think people just hate to lose.

Here's a typical match where I'm the winner although I'm aware that in this particular instance the unique terrain setup really worked in my favour big-time. The point is to show how badly his army got wrecked, although as I said this particular batrep does have some major fairness issues in terms of terrain given the pit in the middle. I think that sometimes people may simply be inexperienced with facing Dark Eldar
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 08:59

Rather than playing with a %age less, why not just try reserving lots of stuff, if you only start with a few units on the board, not only will it force your opponent to concentrate their fire, and thus cause more damage, it's also more of a challenge to yourself to bring down your opponent's units with less available firepower, meaning your own tactical play improves.

If anyone questions it you can always just play it off as making sure you don't lose some of your significant units early on.

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:55

Watched your vid.

Drop pod in a unit of sternguard in front of a solid line of venoms and a Wraithknight?
The bike command squad looks like it didn't turbo-boost at all. Seemed to move so slowly.
And the Thunderfire seemed to do very little. Was it 1 venom and some Kabalites? over 4 turns? Considering how massively bunched up you were (and for quite a few turns), I'm amazed.

Maybe this wasn't a good example, but I'm not convinced that marine player has payed enough attention to the Codex Astartes.
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 11:07

Well drop allies and play pure DE, surely more stuff will die. Wraithknight is such a big threat magnet, try fighting without it. Even then play at maximum ability.

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 14:15

Seems that you want advice on how to be worse, or at least not win so well, yet the suggestion of dropping venom spam, one of the more competetive options for dark eldar, is met with a resounding no.
Also, Eldar are tough, in all aspects, so simply removing them will make the game a touch easier for your opponent.
if venom spam is a must keep, try taking sub optimal units to put in them? (Wyches??) or playing a CC rush? Or taking all your guys out of your venoms to run around on foot?

Or take Hellions..... Hellions suck!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 19:20

Originally started this thread to see what people thought about a blob of Fearless Eldar Guardians as a fun way to play with a handicap

I'll go with the advice to play at a points handicap (%) and drop the Wraithknight, then when I'm used to that I'll replace the points handicap with fun random stuff like Parasite/Pain Engines. Could also lead to me using the Dark Artisan formation

Thanks guys!
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 19:38

Having watched some of your battle reports you seem to more often than not be fighting opponents who are not competitive, field the models that they have rather than a coherent list, and don't have a solid grasp of the game. No offence intended to them, but you are clubbing baby seals by the looks of things.

I would try to find better opponents or help the ones you have make better list/improve their game plan. Right now you're going to pick up a lot of bad habits playing these sort of players and get shock when someone half decent steps up to the plate.  Sad

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Tue Jan 13 2015, 22:49; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 20:21

Also, claiming that you might take a dark artisan isn't going to make you fantastically weaker, the DA formation is one of the better ones around!!
Seriously, if you want to make the game harder, tell your marine friends to drop a load of drop pods with Flamers in them around your bunched up venoms and then watch as most of your army dies inside their transports!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 22:42

I know this is old fashioned, but I consider Allies and Unbound armies to be powergaming, and in fluff terms, cheating! (No offense meant, I promise!)

The original idea of having different armies with different Codecii was that each army has strengths and weaknesses. By cherrypicking from different Codecii, you get the benefits without the flaws.

Try some pure DE lists, and 'm sure you'll find the game a little harder, and more exciting for your friends.

Also, point out to your mates when they're playing a bad move. Don't rub it in, but they might appreciate the advice.
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Tue Jan 13 2015, 23:46

How about feeding on their sorrow like a real Dark Eldar?  Twisted Evil

From competitive video gaming experience, I'm more for not holding back so your opponents can improve.
It actually makes me a bit mad if opponents do so.
But that's more of my opinion.

Some things you could do:

Warn them beforehand that you are very experienced and ask if they really wanna do this.
(Could even forge a Narrative Razz )

Don't always take opponent annoyance personal, sometimes they are mad at theirselves or the game, not you, try to read that.

If you have to go easy, do it in a way that doesn't come off condescending, for example ask them if it's okay for them if you try something, that way you do it for yourself, and not out of pity for them.

Ask beforehand if it's okay if you and your opponent can make a detailed battle analysis after the battle, because you want to learn from mistakes, as a byproduct, the opponent also improves hopefully.

You can also offer an explicit practicing game if the opponent is very new, with the declared goal for the opponent to learn as in he can try out stuff and you help him.
You should be sure that the opponent is not overly offended by that of course.

Stop playing too inexperienced/too casual/too sore losing players altogether.
As sometimes it just doesn't fit, because of mindset or whatever, there is just nothing you can do about that, and both players lose, for reasons already mentioned by Mushkilla and others.

On the direct topic:
I think if you google Dark Eldar Cheese, the first things you'd find would be Venom Spam and CW allies so maybe cut back on those.
To new players that might seem intimidating or even OP because they read it on the internet and maybe make them give up a little inside before the game even starts.

Hope that helped

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 00:35

@Mushkilla wrote:
Having watched some of your battle reports you seem to more often than not be fighting opponents who are not competitive, field the models that they have rather than a coherent list, and don't have a solid grasp of the game. No offence intended to them, but you are clubbing baby seals by the looks of things.

I would try to find better opponents or help the ones you have make better list/improve their game plan. Right now you're going to pick up a lot of bad habits playing these sort of players and get shock when someone half decent steps up to the plate.  Sad

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 01:34

Awesome comment guys thanks again Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 07:33

@flakmonkey wrote:

lol!

You laugh, but I was being serious. I was not shooting 40kscribe down.

I was in a similar situation in my own gaming group, my opponents had reasonable lists (well they were net listing and reading forum/3++ etc) so grey knights was razorspam with psyboltdreads, marines were salamander pods, tau were riptide/missileside spam etc (this was in 6th).

However, they were still not the most competitive players, their lists were optimised, but they didn't necessarily understand the lists they were grabbing off the internet, and hadn't stuck with the same list for a consistent length of time to lean it's ins and outs. They didn't understand the finer minutiae of the rules or have a solid understanding of all the other codexes outside their own (top threats, important codex special rules, popular lists and tricks etc).

Any one remember this response to one of my battle reports?

Protip: Don’t play noobs and you’ll figure out why your army sucks MUCH faster

Anyway after that I started playing really good players from TDC over the internet. People with a lot of experience like Vasara (probably the TDC member with the most competitive experience), Shadows Revenge etc. I got a shock, every mistake I made was punished, every game was fought to the bitter end. Hell the game against Vasara I only drew because of a 45degree vertical fire arc on the storm raven (and that would never have happened on a real board), but Vasara humbled me by letting me get away with it as he only realised in the shooting phase. That game should have been a loss. (The report for those who are interested).

Long story short you can only learn so much playing mediocre players and you learn the most playing opponents that are better than you (as long as you understand where you went wrong and why). Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 09:51

What program lets you play online?

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 10:04

Oh and I can't edit because phone, but yeah, the list is net cheese (by design or accident I don't pretend to know). Expect to dominate more casual lists and (no offense) but if you refuse to take the cheese out of your list, just be honest about what this post is for; self gratification. Nothing wrong with it. That's Dark Eldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 10:23

@The Red King wrote:
...just be honest about what this post is for; self gratification.  Nothing wrong with it. That's Dark Eldar.

Harsh, but there might be a bit of truth there... lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 10:29

Yeah I hope that didn't come out too aggressive.

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Wed Jan 14 2015, 11:06

Vassal

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PostSubject: Re: Giving My Opponents Something to Kill   Thu Jan 15 2015, 10:34

@Mushkilla wrote:
@flakmonkey wrote:

lol!

You laugh, but I was being serious. I was not shooting 40kscribe down.

I had a chuckle at your eloquence Mushkilla.

I have had a few painful experiences dealing with astartes myself, so I was surprised by the lack of aggression from scribes opponent in the vid. I was unsurprised by scribes success, as he was able to systematically tear apart his opponemts force as it was drip feed onto his guns. It would seem his tactics need to be tested against a stronger opponent.
I wish that was my problem.
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