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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 00:34

I have been thinking about using the Realspace Raiders detachment. It looks really fun to have 2 units of scourges and three units of bikes bopping around! However, I am nervous about giving up objective secured units. I seem to need to have my warriors zoom about and grab objectives. How often to people find they need objective secured units? How many people just don't worry about it?

Thanks.

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Khalifeth Drakh
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 01:09

It depends on your army, IMO.

If you don't necessarily need the extra FA slots, then what purpose does the RSR detachment really serve? Hunt from the Shadows? To me, personally, that's not worth ObSec. But if you're building a list around bringing lots of fast-moving firepower (lots of flyers? or maybe you just love Reavers?), then you may not need it.

I find that I can bring plenty of firepower in a CAD, and so prefer the ObSec. But it's worth keeping in mind that Dark Eldar are probably the least concerned about Objective Secured.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 01:29

For DE? Not very. Personally, I prefer the ability to bring 3 extra FA units. Since I'm using those for DTs for my Eldar allies, there's no reason my Eldar can't bring some Guardian Bikers for ObSec units with Jink and Turboboost.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 02:35

I'm on the other end of the spectrum - I think objective secured is quite excellent. Quite frankly, I also don't think any of our FA slots are viable enough to warrant spamming with them (and if I came up with one - why not just run double CAD?), and probably Jimsolo's Eldar allies commentary is about as close as I can think of, but there aren't that many Eldar units I am desperate to run in transports in any case, and if I started to even go slightly in that direction I'd probably run Eldar primary in any case.

The core point is 'what will win you games'.
The core answer is 'most games are won via objectives'.

At that stage, the value and power of ObjSec appears pretty much prima facie to me. Especially with our mobility. I have secured many points in games because my opponent was sitting on n objective with a non-ObjSec unit and I denied him, or tossed over a Troop slot and claimed the objective from underneath him. It is immensely powerful.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 06:32

As Thor said objective secure raiders/venoms win you games.

The only time I run the realspace detachment is for the six fast attack choices at 1500pts (or less) where the troop/hq tax of a second force organisation chart is a larger portion of your army.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 07:48

Thanks for the notes. It's tempting to run the RealSpace Raiders, but I think I'll stick to my CAD.
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 07:51

I think with the rise of codex specific detachments and formations and the like ObSec becomes important, esp fast moving ObSec.....like ours

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Javorra
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 08:04

I think it depends on the missions you usually play. They are important for maelstrom missions, if you are mostly playing the regular missions they are not that game changing. BTW I always use the normal CAD, I don't think our FA are that powerfull to feel I need to spam them, I usually field one or two units of scourge and a plane or an extra transport, but that's my meta I guess.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 08:38

In addition to obsec the ability to reroll warlord trait from BRB is extremely valuable. Yeah Ob sec is very important. Double CAD is an option too.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:11

Speaking as a player who plays almost exclusively non-maelstrom missions, I've only once found ObSec has changed the result of a game, and I average 1 game a week.

I use realspace raiders most of the time, mainly because I like to bring a couple of empty raiders as backup transports and lance platforms in addition to my razorwing, and 2 scourge units. I may however look at tinkering with my list to make the raiders into dedicated transports, if I only brought 3 Fast Attack choices I see no reason not to use the CAD, the cover save isn't enough justification for me.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 11:51

I usually play maelstrom and have found obsec makes no difference at all in 19 out of 20 games.

But hey if you only want 3 FA or if your local store/gaming group allows you to take a second CAD of the same source and you don't mind paying the troops and HQ tax then why not.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 12:02

With the ever-increasing amount of formations, dataslates etc that do not have ObjSec, I take the view that ObjSec becomes even more important for me to have.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 16:23

I'd be willing to trade OS... but not for the pitiful benefits our detachment offers.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 16:45

@The Shredder wrote:
I'd be willing to trade OS... but not for the pitiful benefits our detachment offers.

If a formation has a decent benefit then I'll use it but I usually run a CAD too, specifically for the ObjSec troop units in ObjSec transports.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 16:48

In tournament or competitive play I'd almost certainly go for CAD, unless the detachment special rules are unbelievably good. Realspace Raiders special rules aren't that good.

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barenone
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 18:24

If the enemy has a squad that can take your firepower holding an objective then just keep shooting from a distance. Any unit that can take that firepower will be a point sink meaning the enemy has fewer models. less models means more open objectives for you to control and weaker enemy's you can kill on the objective. doesn't work so well if theirs only like 2 objectives but at that point your probably better off tabling them anyway.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 18:32

Honestly, I have NEVER win a game by stolen objective. Simply we are too fragile to control objective with OS.
If I can choose, OS is good. But is not a "must have" to me.

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 22:56

I'm not certain. It's useful to be able to take them/contest them, but frequently I find that I can apply enough firepower to remove any OS units my opponents have. I've only had one game ever come down to Objective Secured units being a factor, and that involved one of my OS units contesting an objective held by one of his OS units. It's more important in lopsided match-ups, where one side has it and the other doesn't, and at that point it becomes a case of how well the non-OS side can leverage their equivalent (in our case, assuming Realspace Raiders, the Strike from the Shadows and 6 Fast Attack choices).

I quite like Realspace Raiders, because a lot of people seem to overlook the fact that the bonus cover save kicks in on any night-fighting turn. Additionally, I like not having to compensate on my FA slot (the last list I had used five; generally I'm picking from 2 razorwings, a unit of Scourges and a 6 man Reaver squad, and hate having to cut one in a CAD).

Realistically, I think DE troops are too fragile to rely on to hold an objective. Yes, we're great at late-game pinches with speedy raiders and venoms, but for those you don't necessarily need Objective Secured to be successful; you can blast your way to an unclaimed objective quite frequently.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 23:12

My problem with OS for us is that our troops aren't survivable - so our enemies can just blow them off an objective. And, if we jump to an objective to contest it, we're basically throwing away that unit.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 00:20

@The Shredder wrote:
My problem with OS for us is that our troops aren't survivable - so our enemies can just blow them off an objective. And, if we jump to an objective to contest it, we're basically throwing away that unit.

Unless you're playing Maelstrom missions then objectives only matter in the last turn of the game. So look at it this way.

You can either have ObjSec units that aren't survivable claiming objectives (unless those objectives are held by an ObjSec unit, in which case you're contesting them).

Or you can have non ObjSec units that also aren't survivable and are currently receiving no benefit whatsoever from the Realspace Raiders command trait contesting objectives (unless those objectives are held by an ObjSec unit, in which case you can do nothing).

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 00:51

Oh, I'd never take headspace raiders over OS.
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SaturdayNightWrist
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 03:59

I will usually always go the Realspace Raiders detachment
3 razorwings and either scourges or reavers.
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a1elbow
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 05:06

I don't think for DE OS is great. However, I also think our troops are not great and barely run any. Warrior spam would make OS a little better.

As a general rule, I don't think OS gets much done. In non-Maelstrom missions, you look at two armies and how many units are left? Both sides are probably down to 25% of their original forces (unless the game has been dominated by one side) and not that many units are running onto each other's board sections.

In Maelstrom missions, I think non-OS armies that are fast don't need OS. A RR formation can claim any objective it wants, barring having an opposing army occupy every objective (or every objective you need).

Also, because of how objectives work, most OS opportunities are going to need to involve assault. Otherwise, you aren't getting near an objective. This means the OS unit has to be able to win/tie an assault. If you can win an assault, the OS still doesn't mean much.

I don't look at it as anything to get excited about and don't worry about being OS, but if your troops are then you have a nice perk that you may or may not use.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 06:14

OS provides options. Maybe it only wins one game, but in a five round tournament, one game could make a difference. If you only have two troop choices for the tax, but they have OS, they have extra options. Maybe a suicide run on the final turn is worthwhile. Maybe the firepower available at one location isn't sufficient and the only option is to send in an empty OS Raider.

If people want extra fast attack though... I run mandrakes, so who am I to say. Do what sounds cool. FA provide other options as well I guess.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How important are objective secured units?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 10:22

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Unless you're playing Maelstrom missions then objectives only matter in the last turn of the game. So look at it this way.

You can either have ObjSec units that aren't survivable claiming objectives (unless those objectives are held by an ObjSec unit, in which case you're contesting them).

Or you can have non ObjSec units that also aren't survivable and are currently receiving no benefit whatsoever from the Realspace Raiders command trait contesting objectives (unless those objectives are held by an ObjSec unit, in which case you can do nothing).

Here's the thing though - is the problem that OS os good, or is the problem that Realspace Raiders is just a really crap detachment? tongue
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