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 Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 20:22

At some point, I'd like to try out the Dark Artisan formation.

However, one thing that I'm really unsure about is what to do with it on the turn it arrives with WWP.

Is it best to give the Talos a Heat Lance or Haywire Blaster and try to hurt a vehicle? Or, it it better to give the Haemonculus a Liquifier gun and try to get some infantry with it and the Cronos' Spirit Siphon?

Also, any tips for using DA in general?
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 20:38

I kit mine out like this:

Haemonculus w/ WWP, Sump
Cronos w/ Probe
Talos w/ Heatlance, Flails or Ichor injector if I have points

I prefer the pinpoint Heatlance as outside of Fire Dragons with a Portal or Scourge, we don't have reliable ways of Melta to get into range.  DSing behind something and shooting the Heatlance has worked well for me as of late.

I give the Haemon the Sump because I think it is the best of all worlds.  Gives me CC ability or a way of making him more survivable.  His survivability is key for me because he is usually my Warlord.  And the Warlord trait is pretty damn nice.

Probe on the Cronos because a 4+ FnP and then rerolling the 1s makes them ridiculously survivable.

I can see merit in dropping 3 flamer templates down, but it is very expensive.  It can definitely do some work and cause casualties and wounds and would not object to it if it weren't for the inflated cost.


Last edited by SCP Yeeman on Mon Jan 12 2015, 02:39; edited 1 time in total
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 21:15

I wouldn't give it a haywire blaster. A single haywire blaster isn't that impressive - the same reason scourges went from alright to fantastic (2 haywires were less than stellar)

A twin linked heatlance however, is a great choice - especially since you'll have accurate deepstrike.
However, the dark artisan's main strength is in its toughness and close combat. So Just leaving the splinter cannon is acceptable too (you'll generally want to send it after a lot of infantry/non vehicle units anyway) This also works well with the cronos' flamer.

I've personally never given the haemy a liquifier, the unit is expensive enough and the liquifier isnt that great. But if you do want one, the haemy is ofc the better platform for it, not the talos. (as it will cause the talos to lose one of its s7 ap2 attacks)

Something I've enjoyed using the DA for is setting the haemy as my warlord, and giving him a toy from the covens relics. His warlord trait buffs the unit even more, and he is now so very difficult to kill for a dark eldar unit, helping you deny Slay The Warlord for a long time (considering they also are immune to first turn shooting) The cronos should always get the probe imo, it makes this unit even tougher too - especially coupled with the haemy's warlord trait.

The best way to deploy though is anywhere where they have easy access to assault things - I've had some occasions in games where they would deep strike into a nice position, but most of the things manage to get just far enough and then I fail the charge - giving them more time to get away, then the DA just act as area denial.

I've not once lost my warlord with that though, and the unit has never been wiped out. The twinlinked heatlance on an accurate deepstrike unit is fantastic, but I feel like it baits you too much into putting the DA into a position to kill one vehicle. and then it will be semi useless the rest of the game. I know I've used it with heatlance for that reason a few times.

But It might honestly be better to just keep the splinter cannon and give it an ichor injector, done. Then deepstrike in the center of the board or anywhere where they have plenty of targets. flame a few guys, shoot some splinter shots into them, etc. Put them in a position that the enemy can't ignore them - if they decide to shoot at them, they're gonna have to use a lot of shots to bring it down.

sorry for the wall of text. hope that helps in some way


Last edited by Caldria on Sun Jan 11 2015, 21:44; edited 1 time in total
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Idealbroom
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 21:39

I tend to give both the haemonculus and the talos a liquifiers so they can come in and lay down 3 templates.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 22:08

@Caldria wrote:
I wouldn't give it a haywire blaster. A single haywire blaster isn't that impressive - the same reason scourges went from alright to fantastic (2 haywires were less than stellar)

A twin linked heatlance however, is a great choice - especially since you'll have accurate deepstrike.
However, the dark artisan's main strength is in its toughness and close combat. So Just leaving the splinter cannon is acceptable too (you'll generally want to send it after a lot of infantry/non vehicle units anyway) This also works well with the cronos' flamer.

I've personally never given the haemy a liquifier, the unit is expensive enough and the liquifier isnt that great. But if you do want one, the haemy is ofc the better platform for it, not the talos. (as it will cause the talos to lose one of its s7 ap2 attacks)

Something I've enjoyed using the DA for is setting the haemy as my warlord, and giving him a toy from the covens relics. His warlord trait buffs the unit even more, and he is now so very difficult to kill for a dark eldar unit, helping you deny Slay The Warlord for a long time (considering they also are immune to first turn shooting) The cronos should always get the probe imo, it makes this unit even tougher too - especially coupled with the haemy's warlord trait.

The best way to deploy though is anywhere where they have easy access to assault things - I've had some occasions in games where they would deep strike into a nice position, but most of the things manage to get just far enough and then I fail the charge - giving them more time to get away, then the DA just act as area denial.

I've not once lost my warlord with that though, and the unit has never been wiped out. The twinlinked heatlance on an accurate deepstrike unit is fantastic, but I feel like it baits you too much into putting the DA into a position to kill one vehicle. and then it will be semi useless the rest of the game. I know I've used it with heatlance for that reason a few times.

But It might honestly be better to just keep the splinter cannon and give it an ichor injector, done. Then deepstrike in the center of the board or anywhere where they have plenty of targets. flame a few guys, shoot some splinter shots into them, etc. Put them in a position that the enemy can't ignore them - if they decide to shoot at them, they're gonna have to use a lot of shots to bring it down.

sorry for the wall of text. hope that helps in some way

Thanks, that is very helpful.

Assuming the Haemonculus is going to be your warlord, which Relics do you think are worth it?
- Vexator Mask?
- Panacea Perverted?
- Nightmare Doll?

Also, do you think it's worth giving him multiple relics?
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 22:17

Giving him two relics starts making him rather expensive. But if you had to pick 2 I'd go with the Panacea and Doll. But then give him nothing else - He'd be incredibly hard to kill, making FnP saves of 3+ (rerolling 1s) with IWND on 4+. and the first instant death wound is ignored (that is, the wound as well, not just the instant death aspect)

That is 55 points onto his 70 base, and a further 35 for the webway portal. 160 points for a warlord isn't unheard of. But essentially he's paying that all just to not die, which is fine I guess - I'm not sure I'd wanna spend that much. I wouldn't give him any special weapons in that case. If he gets challenged out he could easily just deny, and let his minions do his killing.

I love both of those relics, however. I usually go with Nightmare Doll instead (prevention better than the cure and all that.) better to make those FnP saves than have to regain the wound with IWND. That and he will eventually get regular IWND from the PfP table anyway. Also immunity to the first instant death wound is pretty awesome, because while he's majority t7, he's still only t4 for the purposes of being doubled out ofc.

I've never really even thought of giving him the vexator mask, I don't see him as much of a challenge monkey. He's just there to give the dark artisan cool stuff, like buffs and webway portal. and then to stay alive. which he does very well.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 22:33

@Caldria wrote:
That is 55 points onto his 70 base, and a further 35 for the webway portal. 160 points for a warlord isn't unheard of. But essentially he's paying that all just to not die, which is fine I guess - I'm not sure I'd wanna spend that much. I wouldn't give him any special weapons in that case. If he gets challenged out he could easily just deny, and let his minions do his killing.

Hmm, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

I hadn't really thought about it like that before.

@Caldria wrote:

I love both of those relics, however. I usually go with Nightmare Doll instead (prevention better than the cure and all that.) better to make those FnP saves than have to regain the wound with IWND. That and he will eventually get regular IWND from the PfP table anyway. Also immunity to the first instant death wound is pretty awesome, because while he's majority t7, he's still only t4 for the purposes of being doubled out ofc.

Very good points.

Makes me sad though. I really like the idea of the Panacea Perverted, but it's pretty damn expensive for FNP 4+ when your guy gets FNP 5+ for free from turn 3 onwards anyway.  Crying or Very sad

@Caldria wrote:

I've never really even thought of giving him the vexator mask, I don't see him as much of a challenge monkey. He's just there to give the dark artisan cool stuff, like buffs and webway portal. and then to stay alive. which he does very well.

I believe the idea is to get him to challenge a fast character to slow it down, giving the Talos and Cronos a chance to cut it to pieces before it gets to swing. But, this is all theory for me. Razz

EDIT: I've had a go at making a DA list:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11299-dark-artisan-1500pts#126154
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 22:43

@The Shredder wrote:

Very good points.

Makes me sad though. I really like the idea of the Panacea Perverted, but it's pretty damn expensive for FNP 4+ when your guy gets FNP 5+ for free from turn 3 onwards anyway.  Crying or Very sad

The panacea perverted gives him a 4+ to his It Will Not Die rolls btw, not Feel no Pain Very Happy

the whole unit's FnP rolls will be 4+ because of the cronos' spirit probe, and then the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to the haemy's FnP roll, making him pass his 4+ FnP on a 3+
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 22:58

I like running the DA Haemie as my Warlord with the Nightmare Doll, Sump, and Scissorhands. T7 with 3+/4++ re-rolling 1's is really hard to kill.

Quick question about the Haemie. Can he be used to "tank" Grav weapon shots since he is only wounded on a 6 and he gets a 3+ FNP?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Sun Jan 11 2015, 23:13

@Caldria wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:

Very good points.

Makes me sad though. I really like the idea of the Panacea Perverted, but it's pretty damn expensive for FNP 4+ when your guy gets FNP 5+ for free from turn 3 onwards anyway.  Crying or Very sad

The panacea perverted gives him a 4+ to his It Will Not Die rolls btw, not Feel no Pain

Sorry, I meant to say IWND - not FNP.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 01:02

I go bare bones. Ichor Injector, Spirit Probe, Scissorhand, and possibly a Vexator Mask.

I really like the Mask, since it goes a long way to keeping the unit safe from bubble wrapped beatsticks.
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 06:50

I would say - it depends on your opponent as well as if you make the Haemi your warlord or not.

Whilst the warlord trait is pretty cool, I'm currently leaning more towards not making him my warlord simply because my Dark Artisan already draws a ton of fire and has actually been wiped out before.

If you DO make him your warlord I'd also recommend the Nigtmare Doll like has already been said. If I want to pop a tank upon emerging I'll take the twin-linked heat lances, though my rolls have been miserable so far. You could also try and wipe out a heavy weapons team or something like that with the stock Splinter Cannon, not wasting the shots of the Haemi and the Cronos.

If the DA isn't your warlord I'd just slap Scissorhands on him and possibly the Sump, as it is a pretty flexible piece of wargear.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 09:29

Spirit Probe, Ichor Injector and Scissorhands for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 13:59

@Caldria wrote:
Giving him two relics starts making him rather expensive. But if you had to pick 2 I'd go with the Panacea and Doll. But then give him nothing else - He'd be incredibly hard to kill, making FnP saves of 3+ (rerolling 1s) with IWND on 4+. and the first instant death wound is ignored (that is, the wound as well, not just the instant death aspect)

That is 55 points onto his 70 base, and a further 35 for the webway portal. 160 points for a warlord isn't unheard of. But essentially he's paying that all just to not die, which is fine I guess - I'm not sure I'd wanna spend that much. I wouldn't give him any special weapons in that case. If he gets challenged out he could easily just deny, and let his minions do his killing.

I love both of those relics, however. I usually go with Nightmare Doll instead (prevention better than the cure and all that.) better to make those FnP saves than have to regain the wound with IWND. That and he will eventually get regular IWND from the PfP table anyway. Also immunity to the first instant death wound is pretty awesome, because while he's majority t7, he's still only t4 for the purposes of being doubled out ofc.

I've never really even thought of giving him the vexator mask, I don't see him as much of a challenge monkey. He's just there to give the dark artisan cool stuff, like buffs and webway portal. and then to stay alive. which he does very well.
can i ask how you get a feal no pain save of 3+ please as i thort you could not get beter than 4+
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ecam
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:11

@Caldria wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:

Very good points.

Makes me sad though. I really like the idea of the Panacea Perverted, but it's pretty damn expensive for FNP 4+ when your guy gets FNP 5+ for free from turn 3 onwards anyway.  Crying or Very sad

The panacea perverted gives him a 4+ to his It Will Not Die rolls btw, not Feel no Pain Very Happy

the whole unit's FnP rolls will be 4+ because of the cronos' spirit probe, and then the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to the haemy's FnP roll, making him pass his 4+ FnP on a 3+
you cant go lower than 4+ feal no pain useing the spirt probe as it states on its profile that its cumulative with any other modifiyer but can not inprove beyond 4+
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:16

@ecam wrote:
@Caldria wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:

Very good points.

Makes me sad though. I really like the idea of the Panacea Perverted, but it's pretty damn expensive for FNP 4+ when your guy gets FNP 5+ for free from turn 3 onwards anyway.  Crying or Very sad

The panacea perverted gives him a 4+ to his It Will Not Die rolls btw, not Feel no Pain Very Happy

the whole unit's FnP rolls will be 4+ because of the cronos' spirit probe, and then the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to the haemy's FnP roll, making him pass his 4+ FnP on a 3+
you cant go lower than 4+ feal no pain useing the spirt probe as it states on its profile that its cumulative with any other modifiyer but can not inprove beyond 4+

The wording on the Nightmare Doll is crucial here: it does not improve the Feel No Pain, but it adds 1 to any FNP roll. In other words, FNP is still a 4+, but rolling a 3 now counts as a 4, 4 as a 5, etc.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:21

@ecam wrote:
can i ask how you get a feal no pain save of 3+ please as i thort you could not get beter than 4+

Cronos can't boost FNP better than 4+. However, Nightmare Doll gives +1 to the FNP roll, rather than improving what you pass the role on.

Think of it this way - you have an effect that improves a model's BS, but can't improve it beyond BS4. However, an effect that gives a model +1 to hit would still work with it, because you're not improving the model's BS - you're just adding to the to-hit roll itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:22

The Doll isn't as good as you guys are posting. It DOES make the Haemy a 3+ FNP, but there isn't a way to enable rerolling 1's on the model. The Master Artisan trait (which is I assume where you are all getting the idea from), doesn't affect the Haemy itself, just the Talos and Cronos.

"All friendly Talos and Cronos models within 12" of the Warlord re-roll failed Feel No Pain rolls of a 1."
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:24

Spirit Probe, Ichor Injector (if you have 10 points spare) and Agoniser with Sindriq's Sump for me. This enables me to accept most challenges and win (with Rampage from the Sump).
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:26

@Hellstrom wrote:
The Doll isn't as good as you guys are posting.  It DOES make the Haemy a 3+ FNP, but there isn't a way to enable rerolling 1's on the model.  The Master Artisan trait (which is I assume where you are all getting the idea from), doesn't affect the Haemy itself, just the Talos and Cronos.

"All friendly Talos and Cronos models within 12" of the Warlord re-roll failed Feel No Pain rolls of a 1."

Yup, this is correct, my bad. Though passing your FnP on a 3+ and immune to the first instant death wound is still pretty great.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:28

So, when you take the doll, do you actually put your Haemonculus in front and use him to soak some fire?
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:30

You can - until that first instant death wound, the haemy tanks shots better than the talos/cronos. You can also then Look Out Sir once the doll goes down. I don't often do that though - since, the way I read it, the doll fails to work in its entirety once it breaks from the first instant death wound - meaning you lose that +1 to your FnP rolls.
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:32

I think Sweetbacon was reasoning through Majority Toughness: T7 (that's the engines), 3+ (again engines) with a 4++ (FNP), rerolling 1's.
No need for a Nightmare Doll there, it doesn't come into account unless you have to allocate wounds to the Haemie specifically. Seeing as that can be manipulated, one would reconsider the value of the Doll...
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:46

I think allocating wounds to the Haemie with the Nightmare Doll could be useful against Grav weapons, as he is only wounded on sixes instead of the threes the Talos/Cronos will be wounded on.  Could be useful, but situational.

I also put my Haemie in front and Look Out Sir anything over Str 8 to the Talos/Cronos. Any AP 3 or better wounds which aren't over Str 8, I take on the Haemie which is kitted out with the Doll and the Panacea. Even if he takes a wound, he has a 50% chance of regaining it. So far it has worked out well, although it is an admittedly a small sample size.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kitting out and Deploying Dark Artisan   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:52

@sweetbacon wrote:
I think allocating wounds to the Haemie with the Nightmare Doll could be useful against Grav weapons, as he is only wounded on sixes instead of the threes the Talos/Cronos will be wounded on.  Could be useful, but situational.

Except that wounds are rolled first, and then allocated.

@sweetbacon wrote:
I also put my Haemie in front and Look Out Sir anything over Str 8 to the Talos/Cronos.  Any AP 3 or better wounds which aren't over Str 8, I take on the Haemie which is kitted out with the Doll and the Panacea.  Even if he takes a wound, he has a 50% chance of regaining it.  So far it has worked out well, although it is an admittedly a small sample size.  

I might give that a try.
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