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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 10:09

Aaaalright so maybe we can get over the bad/not bad rererequote debate and/or continue looking for ways to improve wyches?

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 16:53

@Marrath wrote:
Aaaalright so maybe we can get over the bad/not bad rererequote debate and/or continue looking for ways to improve wyches?

In Codex Dark eldar there is no way to improve wyches, However our battle brothers can take the daemonology discipline, assuming you roll sanctuary you now have wyches with a 3+ invuln. or take iyanden and take a shadow council and throw them into your wyches squad.

If your not looking for CWE support then your SoL our codex has given us no way to support our infantry except killing faster (if that counts). I don't count the master of pain rule it is expensive, slows the squad, and gives you a benefit you already get a turn later.

Unless you want to talk about future wyches rules releases we have gone over everything tactics for wyches are
1. dont get shot
2. dont enter melee with anything with alot of attacks
3. Dont charge tau EVER
4. Do tarpit things
4a. Do tarpit things with an agonizer
4b. Do tarpit things with an agonizer and hydragauntlets
5. And this one may be the reason to take them 50-150 point upgrade (or 105-155 with transport) to a melee squad to eat overwatch and eat the wounds for them.
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 16:56

they effectively havent changed as a combat unit since their 3rd to 5th where they were an actual tarpit unit and then became a slightly worse tarpit unit with a slightly better offensive output.

they are in fact 10 point invulnerable saves meant to be a counter assault unit to slow down or kill big units of terminaters and other assault units with low ap like nobs(which they do point for point) their problem is people have, for the most part, stopped taking death stars or armies based around these units because of how the rules have changed.

it isnt that they are a bad assault unit its that they arent a good counter to what people currently use.
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 17:02

As ive said in other posts Without the ability to strip attacks off the enemy even tarpitting is harder now
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 17:09

@helvexis wrote:
they effectively havent changed as a combat unit since their 3rd to 5th where they were an actual tarpit unit and then became a slightly worse tarpit unit with a slightly better offensive output.

Having their enemy debuffs replaced with to-hit and to-wound re-rolls is not what I would call a "better offensive output", not even a slight one. Actually, I'm not noticing any kind of offensive improvements over their previous incarnations.

As for making them work regardless of their flaws, my suggestions stay the same:

* Take Eldar allies with pinning weapons.
* Assault only pinned enemies that don't have a ton of attacks.
* Assault with Wyches only to tarpit. If you want the target destroyed, use Grots or Incubi.
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sun Jan 18 2015, 06:59

revised 3rd ed codex wych weapons.(i cant go earlier than this because i have no idea where the original dex is)
+2 pt per model the squad is equipped with Wych weapons. These have the following effects-
No member of a squad fighting the Wyches in close combat counts as equipped with an additional closecombat weapon.
All enemies with an unmodified Strength below 6 halve their Weapon Skill characteristic (rounding up)for attacks made against the Wyches. Models with a Strength of 6 or more are unaffected (something that large is impossible to ensnare, even for a trained gladiator).
Note that it is assumed the Wych weapons are evenly distributed amongst the squad; it is irrelevant which actual models display them, so long as at least a small number do. A model armed with Wych weapons isstill counted as carrying a splinter pistol and close combat weapon for the sake of it’s own attacks

Neither of these things are increase the wyches offensive potential they increase survivability which is defensive.

Then with 5th we again got individually carried wych weapons 2 of which increased offensive capabilities in the form of more attacks or rerolls to hit and wound and the defensive option that was negating 1 attack.

Now we have wych weapons that are still individually carried, they are all ap5, each have a minor boost to offensive potential but are half the cost of the last ones. Are they better? No probably not although they are cheap and flat out kill lightly armored infantry now.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sun Jan 18 2015, 08:04

@helvexis wrote:
Now we have wych weapons that are still individually carried, they are all ap5, each have a minor boost to offensive potential but are half the cost of the last ones. Are they better? No probably not although they are cheap and flat out kill lightly armored infantry now.

Yay. Finally I don't have as much trouble killing Guardsmen and Thermagaunts anymore. Rolling Eyes
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sun Jan 18 2015, 09:04

Quote :
Neither of these things are increase the wyches offensive potential they increase survivability which is defensive.

Thats not true, you would hit on 3+ with old wych weapons on all who have weapons skill 4, 5 and 6.

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sun Jan 18 2015, 09:10

no you didnt it was only for attacks made against the wyches not attacks the wyches made against them
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:12

Compare our Wyches with the new Necron Flayed Ones:

13 points
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv4+
May include up to 15 other Flayed Ones
Deep Strike, Fear, Infiltrate, Reanimation Protocols
Two Flayer Claws: AP 5, Shred

They're actually a semi-decent combat unit now. More attacks with AP5 and Shred is decent but not OP plus they are tougher (T4, 4+ save and effectively permanent FNP). If GW can do this for an utterly useless unit like Flayed Ones then why couldn't they have done it for Wyches?


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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:19

Flayed ones didn't sell, wyches did. Just not for the right reasons.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 15:51

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Flayed ones didn't sell, wyches did. Just not for the right reasons.

Sadly, this is very much the case. Unit stats and abilities are adjusted according to sales (or lack thereof). Not sure why Wraiths have been buffed so much though as I'm sure they were already selling quite nicely.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 16:01

There does seem to be the odd discrepancy in that regard. I wonder if the mold needed renewing, or possibly that they wanted necron players buying multiple boxes - I don't see necrons in my meta (the one guy with a completed army sold them last autumn, having not used them for 6 months or so, and my collection never really got off the ground with too many other projects on the go) so not sure if the tendency is to take multiple units of them.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 16:04

It's cause all of you haywych spammers who made Wyches get nerfed.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 16:14

It's not me guv, I nevver took haywire wyches in 6th, honest! bom

Probably why i didn't win very much.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 16:59

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
not sure if the tendency is to take multiple units of them.
One of my regular opponents is a Necron player and when he takes Wraiths, it's only one unit of 3. Same with most batreps I've seen them used in.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 17:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Flayed ones didn't sell, wyches did. Just not for the right reasons.

Sadly, this is very much the case. Unit stats and abilities are adjusted according to sales (or lack thereof). Not sure why Wraiths have been buffed so much though as I'm sure they were already selling quite nicely.

Mandrakes don't sell either, yet GW didn't buff them.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 17:41

@Rokuro wrote:
Mandrakes don't sell either, yet GW didn't buff them.
Not enough to make them worth using, but they did get buffed.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 17:46

@Erebus wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
Mandrakes don't sell either, yet GW didn't buff them.
Not enough to make them worth using, but they did get buffed.

Yes: They can shoot now without having to kill a unit in CC beforehand.
But that's more the removal of a needless limitation than a true buff. They still suck in CC.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 19:06

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Flayed ones didn't sell, wyches did. Just not for the right reasons.

Sadly, this is very much the case. Unit stats and abilities are adjusted according to sales (or lack thereof). Not sure why Wraiths have been buffed so much though as I'm sure they were already selling quite nicely.

The only problem I have with that line of thinking is I'm sure kabalites outsold wyches and they got better. And then there's the matter of hellions, who were only purchased to convert into beastmasters, or for use in your Spider-Man playset.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 20:27

I actually run wyches. I keep them in raiders in reserve and go second that way even if they come on turn 2, the earliest my opponent can shoot them is turn 3 (when they already have FNP 5+). They are still overpriced though.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 23:10

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Flayed ones didn't sell, wyches did. Just not for the right reasons.

Sadly, this is very much the case. Unit stats and abilities are adjusted according to sales (or lack thereof). Not sure why Wraiths have been buffed so much though as I'm sure they were already selling quite nicely.

The only problem I have with that line of thinking is I'm sure kabalites outsold wyches and they got better. And then there's the matter of hellions, who were only purchased to convert into beastmasters, or for use in your Spider-Man playset.

I'm not so sure that Warriors outsold Wyches prior to the 7e codex. Many lists used Wracks and Wyches as their troop component. Warriors were comparatively rare. I also think there is a second factor in what units get buffed and nerfed. Firstly it comes down to what is selling well/badly but there's also a factor of what the models are made of. I could be wrong but I doubt too many Failcast models will have been buffed. It's all about the plastic these days.

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 23:41

im a bit salty about flayed ones being 3 points more and way more effective than wyches
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 28 2015, 23:44

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I could be wrong but I doubt too many Failcast models will have been buffed. It's all about the plastic these days.

Grotesques are both our currently best assault unit and the very definition of Failcast.
The only buff Wracks got is the Ossefactor, a ranged weapon in what is supposedly a close combat unit.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Feb 02 2015, 22:57

I've got it cheers

Wyches are designed to combat the centurion star! Laughing

They can't overwatch, don't generally have high combat prowess in large quantities, and only wound us on a 6 even if they do see us coming!

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