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Erebus
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:57

Oh, right. When I see MC, I automatically think Monstrous Creature. I had a brain fart and missed the "power weapon" in the sentence.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:02

@Erebus wrote:
Oh, right. When I see MC, I automatically think Monstrous Creature. I had a brain fart and missed the "power weapon" in the sentence.

Ah right! Fair enough. Most MC's are indeed S6+ so that's largely true, although there are some that are not (Tervigon springs to mind).

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:17

point for point they beat assault marines and probably khorne beserkers which says more about them than it does about wyches killing potential. Any non dedicated assault unit they can beat the flip side of that of course is most of this type of unit have guns that will shred your wyches so just take grotesques or incubi and profit Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 13:43

@helvexis wrote:
point for point they beat assault marines and probably khorne beserkers which says more about them than it does about wyches killing potential.

Please, pit Wyches against Khorne Berserkers to see how well that goes.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 14:45

@Black Death: you always need a delivery system for them so either 10 in a raider (9 if you want an IC attached) or 10-15 with WWP. I prefer 15 to get more juice from the WWP, 10 girls then just a raider (specially when it also has DS).

To clarify my post, when I said that the 4++ dodge save "laughs at high AP weapons is because you get no benefit from the investment and then your opponent melee specialists are wasting their time.

Comparing wyches to grotesques is like apples and watermelons. I won't make a watermelon pie. I can throw my grotesques against a S10 powerclaw warboss and lose them faster than wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 16:37

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Erebus wrote:
Oh, right. When I see MC, I automatically think Monstrous Creature. I had a brain fart and missed the "power weapon" in the sentence.

Ah right! Fair enough. Most MC's are indeed S6+ so that's largely true, although there are some that are not (Tervigon springs to mind).

Sorry, should have written it out ;-) I did mean monstrous creatures, as they also usually have S6+ and AP2.
Concerning grotesques, sure they will also deliver quite a punch, but I would not sent them against weapons that harm them to much. That's where (in my mind) wyches come to play ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 20:22

The only real value in wyches I see now, is as a tarpit, though I rarely find a reason to put a unit in my army that can ONLY do that. Especially when they're either the best at it or the worst.

Because a 4++ on cheap troop options is nothing to scoff at. I once had a squad of 10 wyches hold off a full squad of space marine bikers with chapter master that were loaded with power weapons for three whole turns (oh also did this to mephiston with five wyches). Because I was lucky. I've also ran from a squad of pathfinders. Because I was unlucky.

And that's what using wyches as a tarpit is. A coin flip. Your results may be amazing, or you might be scratching your head on why you brought them along in the first place.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 02:16

They are combat tarpits but also strike back. On every player turn.

And now that Expletive said that... Grisly trophies should help wyches (and non-coven supplement units) to stay in combat... I'll mention that in my post right now!


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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 07:27

@Eldur wrote:
They are combat tarpits but also strike back. On every player turn.

They strike back? My opponents have never noticed that! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 10:47

No one's noticed.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 11:50

Haha! Great stuff Thor!

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 15:25

Against your arguments, I'll just do the math....

Against MEQs, they'll strike "back" first (allow me the contradiction) , with 2-3 attacks each depending on charge (3-4 once every 6 battles), hit on 4+ (on 3+ once every 6 battles), wound on 5+/4+ depending on furious charge (4+/3+ once every 6 battles) and then 3+ saves for MEQs. The agonizer hekatrix (3-4 attacks and 4-5 in 1 out of 6 battles) will wound on 4+ (3+ and reroll with FC once every 6 battles) and then no saves.

Each wych damage output (in unsaved MEQ wounds, UMW) depending on drugs and FC assaulting (FCA):
3/6 (+1 T, +1 I or +1 Ld): 0,11 UMW; 0,25 with FCA
1/6 (+1 A): 0,16 UMW; 0,33 with FCA
1/6 (+1 WS): 0,15 UMW; 0,33 with FCA
1/6 (+1 S):  0,16 UMW; 0,33 with FCA

I'd like to make the math for wych weapons too... Even the bad* ones!

Each Hydra Gauntlet wych:
3/6 (+1 T, +1 I or +1 Ld): 0,19 UMW; 0,37 with FCA
1/6 (+1 A): 0,28 UMW; 0,37 with FCA
1/6 (+1 WS): 0,25 UMW; 0,5 with FCA
1/6 (+1 S):  0,25 UMW; 0,44 with FCA

Each shardnet+impaler wych:
3/6 (+1 T, +1 I or +1 Ld): 0,15 UMW; 0,34 with FCA
1/6 (+1 A): 0,22 UMW; 0,45 with FCA
1/6 (+1 WS): 0,20 UMW; 0,45 with FCA
1/6 (+1 S):  0,23 UMW; 0,45 with FCA

Each Razorflail wych:
3/6 (+1 T, +1 I or +1 Ld): 0,16 UMW; 0,38 with FCA
1/6 (+1 A): 0,25 UMW; 0,5 with FCA
1/6 (+1 WS): 0,20 UMW; 0,44 with FCA
1/6 (+1 S):  0,25 UMW; 0,5 with FCA

* it turns out that there's no bad wych weapon, just one optimal situation for each one!

The Hekatrix (with agonizer) damage output, same conditions:
3/6 (+1 T, +1 I or +1 Ld): 0,75 UMW; 1 with FCA
1/6 (+1 A): 1 UMW; 1,25 with FCA
1/6 (+1 WS): 1 UMW; 1,33 with FCA
1/6 (+1 S):  0,75 UMW; 1,7 with FCA

Each MEQ attack (in unsaved wych wounds, UWW) depending on drugs and FnP
5/6 (+1 A, +1WS, +1 S, +1 I or +1 Ld): 0,16 UWW; 0,11 with FnP
1/6 (+1 T): 0,125 UWW; 0,08 with FnP
Any WS4 high strenght weapon attack (HSWA) will do 0,21 UWW, no FnP.


So factoring drugs, a FC, FnP unit of 10 wyches [0,29 UMW each] including the hekatrix [1,21 UMWs] with agonizer and the 3 wych weapons [~0,4 UMW each] charging a 10 MEQ unit.... (no overwatch, but 10 bolters with rapid fire would kill 1'48 wyches with FnP or 0'98 if charging through 5+ cover).

--> Wyches with FC do 4'15 UMWs, 6 MEQ (with power fist sergeant) do 0,95 UWWs.
The next player turn 9 wyches [0,13 UMWs each] including the 3 weapons [~0,2 UMWs each] and Heka [0,83 UMWs] equals another 2,08 dead MEQs, which will kill 0,75 wyches if the PF sergant is still there.
Next 2 player turns, 8 wyches kill the rest in exchange of 0,53 wyches.

Result: in 2 game turns 10 FnP, FC wyches with all combat upgrades (150 points w/o transports) charging against 10 MEQs with PF sergeant equals 7 wyches and 0 MEQs. Losing 2 wyches in overwatch means...5 wyches and 0 MEQs in 2 game turns. But, you should be in PfP turn 4 (so I recommend getting an haemy in exchange of 1 wych and 2 weapon upgrades -but you lose their reliability- or playing with DSing and/or hiding with your raider until then)

If you have 15 wyches with heka and weapon upgrades(200 points) DSing with a WWP+agonizer coven heamonculus (140 with sump), you'll always kill 10-man MEQ units again in 2 game turns including the one you assault as always. But, if the haemy is from the coven book and you DS on turn 3, you'll get Zealot (hatred) the turn you charge (4th), which means killing the MEQ unit in only 1 game turn.


-----TL,DR:-----
A) 10 wyches with weapons and agonizer hekatrix in PfP turn 4 are made to reliably kill 10 MEQ units in 2 game turns, but you need to wait until then.
B) I reccommend them in a DS or hiding raider with NSs or 15 of them using a WWP haemy. The first is means surviving enough time with your Raider, the second DSs and running into good cover or out of LOS.
C) Assault through cover and avoid flamers. -2 to asault range is better than losing the first chargers and you can deploy almost point blank thanks to Raider or WWP. Remember that -except for flamers- range, cover and LOS count towards overwatch. Even if they kill your only wych with LOS to the enemy unita
D) haemy from coven Yes/No: from coven you are fearless from turn 1 and gain zealot on 4, but you can't GtG. No coven means you can GtG, and for free in turn 4 IF YOU PLAY FIRST. I'd use the coven book.
E) If you don't give them an IC, always get the wych weapons, and use them from the back in combat as with the heka.
F) Razorflails turned to be the best ones when charging with FC and Hydra gauntlets on any other combat rounds.Shardnets are only better against GEQs. In 15-wych units with a coven haemy, take hydras always IMHO.
G) If your wyches are objective secured units, this strategy suits them well to steal or deny objectives occupied by meq units.


Wyches are the ultimate finesse unit, as it seems.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 16:20

Dammit! Just typed out a lengthy reply and the bloody internet crashed! TLDR version is that you are relying on an absolute perfect storm of terrain setup, reserve rolls, enemy positioning, choice of target, combat drugs, absence of overwatch and the idiocy of your opponent in order to even get a maxed out unit to kill an equal point unit in a worst-case (for them) scenario. That does not, in any way shape or form, make the Wyches a decent, or even viable unit. I like your optimism though!

On the subject of Wych Weapons, to me, the increase in UMW is more than offset by the cost of the items. If you look at it on a per point basis, the shardnet is clearly rubbish, the razorflail just about breaks even and the hydra gauntlet is slightly sub-par.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 17:32

Naw, c'mon Adhemar, as long as I get my maxed out unitof Wyches charging a non-assault Marine squad on Turn 3+ of the game I can manage to kill them by around Turn 5 with only around 50% casualties. That is just awesomesauce and makes them a finesse unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 19:13

Is finesse a fancy name for masochistic?

If you like causing yourself pain, Play wyches. The urges to cut yourself will disappear as your need to feel pain will be used in full on the gaming table.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 19:18

While I'm not sure I agree with all your conclusions Eldur (particularly regarding the Wych weapons), I definitely appreciate the thought and maths you've put into this. Wyches aren't good, but this has me considering pulling mine out of the case for the next time I play a casual game.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 19:35

Ok ok, calm down I just wanted to guess the "sweet spot" for wyches, where they can be relied on.

Those MEQs could have been combat specialists just by multipliying their damage output. Even with a PF sergeant an assault meq unit only achieve ~1,5 wounds in the described first round.

Heck, its math friday!!!!!

(Against wyches with fnp, no drugs)
2xPF/TH attacks: 0,41 dead wyches
3xlightning claws (dual wield) attacks: 0,45 dead wyches
4x S5 AP2 attacks with hatred (for example): 0,83 dead wyches

(Against sanguinary guard, no fnp)
2xPF/TH attacks: 0,83 dead sanguinary guard
3xlightning claws (dual wield) attacks: 0,19 dead SG
4x S5 AP2 attacks with hatred (for example): 2 dead SG


To me, wyches should start from reserves. They are not grotesques, I know, but with Objective secured they are really valuable. You tarpit, you score meanwhile, and if you pay some more you can hurt more expensive units while losing little in comparison.

A unit is sitting in an objective in the open? Sure, shoot them out the table. A unit is sitting in an objective in cover? Send in the wyches. No matter how strong is the unit (as long as it doesn't have flamers).

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 19:47

@Calyptra - The Wych weapon numbers make sense, just so long as your remember he's positing from a place where the Wyches have +1 Str from Furious Charge in all his conclusion. (also, recognize that he's not accounting for deaths from Overwatch, and also taking an average of damage output and damage sustained - meaning it's an average of all wych drug results meaning that the numbers are softened from reality a bit that way also)

Look at the UMW number for a more accurate assessment - it doesn't count the charge attack, but will show a more reasonable presumption for potential damage output of a Wych squad on Turns 1-3.

Also, account for about an additional 1 Wych deaths a turn due to Overwatch and further surviving Marines due to lack of damage output in all subsequent rounds from the Overwatch. Also, add about a combat phase for total completion of the job.

@Eldur - I will agree, in the situation you describe a Wych squad would win the fight.

I also agree that Wyches benefit from starting in reserves, but will note that I feel assault units suffer from being in reserves as far as usefulness to my army goes - they're already a bit of a slow start unit, not really getting off till Turn 2+ in a standard game, and with DS/reserves I'm delaying them 1-2 additional rounds so am, functionally, paying for them to deal with a single assault situation in the course of a game.

I am not impressed by their ability to, vaguely, whittle down a single squad of Marines. I can get stuff that can do it better, faster, with less casualties, for less points in multiple ways via shooting, assault, or both. Therefore, there is no value to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 21:49

Quote :
Therefore, there is no value to them.

We really should agree to stop punching dead horse. Pretty much all is clear with Wyches, Brides and Hellions. Dark Eldar dont feed of dead bodies, so stop punching them.

Only some future love in the form of new rules might save situation. All the advices about said units should probably begin with - ok, accept that you are giving enemy handicap at x points, but if you really really want to be that alpha-male here is what you should probably do:

Then actual advice like  - "like look cool", "show your superior painting skills", "tell stories about old wych weapons and wage psycholgical war", "pretend that it is super finess unit and really one to be afraid of" etc...

Here is what you should probably feel when you win with a massive wych cult presence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HqdSjdtPAQ

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 22:21

@Thor665 wrote:

I am not impressed by their ability to, vaguely, whittle down a single squad of Marines. I can get stuff that can do it better, faster, with less casualties, for less points in multiple ways via shooting, assault, or both. Therefore, there is no value to them.

It all comes down what that act of defiance let's you do. If it keeps a squad (like Devastors) from shooting and thus the rest of my army can overload other units than that is OK for me.

Not every unit needs to be ace at combat to be effective. It needs to do it's job, and a 4++ with FNP for those ppm is usually enough.

And Thor, for the love of Khaine, if someone thinks about playing a not-as-good-as-everyone-would-like-then-to-be unit like wyches in a(now for the very important part) casual game, then please do not crush that idea with your very well thought through tournament advice. I agree with you, if one would ask how to play them in a tournament setting, but then it was just supposed to be casual....


@Azdrubael: funny, how you talk about stop punching dead horses while punching a dead horse ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Fri Jan 16 2015, 23:24

I don't fault Eldur's Mathhammer, but this is a clear example of the limitations of Mathhammer: no unit works in a vacuum.
I am a devout Wych user, but I have nothing but poor performance from them, however they are played, aggressively, cautiously or defensively.
The only way to keep them alive is to hide them from danger.

The perfect conditions needed for them to achieve a better chance of succeeding than failing will rarely occur, never if your opponent is competent, and even if it WERE to occur, you then need good luck that day, not bad. Standard deviation is NOT on your side.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 01:15

Well, if you're really looking to put your wyches to work...

A few of mine work stripper poles as objective markers, you could always employ a few to hold round cards so you can remember what turn you're on, you could hire a few to wash raiders and venoms at the local skimmer wash, and Wal-Mart is always hiring... though they probably couldn't pass the drug test.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 03:33

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
And Thor, for the love of Khaine, if someone thinks about playing a not-as-good-as-everyone-would-like-then-to-be unit like wyches in a(now for the very important part) casual game, then please do not crush that idea with your very well thought through tournament advice. I agree with you, if one would ask how to play them in a tournament setting, but then it was just supposed to be casual....
If people are playing 'just for fun' then they wouldn't be reading articles/discussions about how to play better and win more.
The people who are reading this, can bear to hear that a unit is substandard. if they didn't care about winning before reading that, it won't change anything.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 09:04

@Thor665 wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
And Thor, for the love of Khaine, if someone thinks about playing a not-as-good-as-everyone-would-like-then-to-be unit like wyches in a(now for the very important part) casual game, then please do not crush that idea with your very well thought through tournament advice. I agree with you, if one would ask how to play them in a tournament setting, but then it was just supposed to be casual....
If people are playing 'just for fun' then they wouldn't be reading articles/discussions about how to play better and win more.
The people who are reading this, can bear to hear that a unit is substandard. if they didn't care about winning before reading that, it won't change anything.

You are painting a black and white picture, where there are more then fifty shades of grey. I am a casual gamer, that like to discuss units and prefers to play something fluffy/any unit I like.
Also, discussions like this one are a good reminder, that casual gamer like to talk tactics, because:
Marrath open the threat by stating that "wyches are quite terribad ", but still he wanted to use them as best as possible.
That is a classic casual gamers discussion.
What I liked was, that he got quite a few good thoughts on how to use them.
What I did not like....... Ended in a rant. Maybe some other time ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sat Jan 17 2015, 09:52

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
And Thor, for the love of Khaine, if someone thinks about playing a not-as-good-as-everyone-would-like-then-to-be unit like wyches in a(now for the very important part) casual game, then please do not crush that idea with your very well thought through tournament advice. I agree with you, if one would ask how to play them in a tournament setting, but then it was just supposed to be casual....
If people are playing 'just for fun' then they wouldn't be reading articles/discussions about how to play better and win more.
The people who are reading this, can bear to hear that a unit is substandard. if they didn't care about winning before reading that, it won't change anything.

You are painting a black and white picture, where there are more then fifty shades of grey. I am a casual gamer, that like to discuss units and prefers to play something fluffy/any unit I like.
Also, discussions like this one are a good reminder, that casual gamer like to talk tactics, because:
Marrath open the threat by stating that "wyches are quite terribad ", but still he wanted to use them as best as possible.
That is a classic casual gamers discussion.
What I liked was, that he got quite a few good thoughts on how to use them.
What I did not like....... Ended in a rant. Maybe some other time ;-)

The thing is wyches work like they have always worked. Put them in a transport, zoom them up the board. Disembark. Assault. They work the same way they have always worked. You use them the same way you have always used them, sans haywire grenades. Nothing has changed other than they are crappier than they were an edition ago.

So I suppose if the question, is there a "way to make wyches work"? If you are a casual player then yes. In the same way you can make mandrakes and hellions work. You buy the models you spend the points and they go on the table, therefore they worked. Is there a way to make them good? No.

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