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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Sun Jan 11 2015, 21:22

I'm in agreement with those that think dataslates and supplements (coughDLCcough) will be the new hotness once all codexes receive a hardback edition. With news of upcoming Harlequins codex/supplement, I'm encouraged that even niche units (I doubt tons of people were clamoring for a standalone Harlequin book), will receive some love. Therefore, I wouldn't be too shocked to see a Wyche Cult dataslate or supplement in the future.
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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 12:13

While I haven't fielded mine since the new book dropped (I haven't fielded them since 6th to be honest).... I've seen Skari use them in his bat-reps to good effect. They are basically speed-bump units, little 5 girl squads, or 8 out a Raider who basically run interceptor and slow things up in CC.

Also there are uses for them... good targets are Centurions, Devastators, Daemons of all sorts, even scary assault terminator squads... a lot of these units you won't beat in combat but your tying up a super expensive unit, and super important unit for your opponent with a throw-away unit. I think one squad of 8 won't kill you if you really want to use them.

Also like Thor said... if you have a small unit of beasts absorb overwatch for them they are not horrible and if the ability to tie up major units for a turn or two in combat can pay dividends for a Dark Eldar player as taking units out of shooting phase for even a turn or two can be invaluable.

While I don't plan on running them myself I do think they have a use. Not the shock troopers they once were... but as a speed-bump that can disrupt your opponents plans for a turn or two for the points investment its not bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 13:34



If Wyches did indeed look like these, and this thread would've been entirely unnecessary.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 13:37

So, here's a question since this thread is based on making Wyches work. What rule/stat changes it would take to make them viable (and by viable, I mean rivaling Warriors as a troop choice)? Assuming that getting HWG is not an option, what buffs would they need to make you want to take them?

I think giving them Rending or allowing their Dodge save to work against shooting would make them playable.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 13:48

Just allowing dodge to work against overwatch would be a huge buff let alone actually giving them offensive options, haywire squads is silly and shouldn't have been a thing but they need/ed something to make them useful and mildly dangerous in combat once the haywire thing was fixed
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 13:54

For the points I'd want two attacks base (Ork Boyz get 2 attacks!) and either poisoned weapons or rending, possibly with poison working on a 3+.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 14:28

@sweetbacon wrote:
So, here's a question since this thread is based on making Wyches work.  What rule/stat changes it would take to make them viable (and by viable, I mean rivaling Warriors as a troop choice)?  Assuming that getting HWG is not an option, what buffs would they need to make you want to take them?  

I think giving them Rending or allowing their Dodge save to work against shooting would make them playable.  

As much as i love the what would make them better discussions, i think we had enough of them and they do not help anyone :-\

I would like to focus more on tips to use them, that would actually help players that do want to field then.
So first, I'll sum up what Cavalier sad, what is there use:
Role: Speed bump/ offence denial unit
Target: high priced unit with low body count, preferably with some sort of power weapons or very shooty weapons
What is the use: stop the unit from attacking (ranged or melee) another high value target.

And that my friends can be a life saver ;-)
What would be a good unit loadout? I would say something around 6-7 wyches in raider. You need not take any upgrades if you just want them to speed bump.

Now another thing: how to improve them \ help them.
I guess anything that helps their FNP is good, so Cronos and/or Urien around and the animus vitae would be pretty handy.
Luckily all three also benefit other squads.

And last but not least, overwatch. You will often need something to tank overwatch for you, as Thor suggested, Small beast squads can reliably do just that. They are the ultimate throw away unit, you just need enough Fast Attack slots;-)


So that is my thought on how to get the most out of wyches. Anyone else got ideas on the usage of them?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 18:48

Painreaver, we need a caption contest for that picture
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Mon Jan 12 2015, 20:17

Thanks Painreaver for that picture, it's definately a motivator xD
And thanks Crazy yes that was actually the point, this is not meant as a wishlist thread.
Like the strats so far keep 'em coming wyches seem to need all the help they can get.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 08:05

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
For the points I'd want two attacks base (Ork Boyz get 2 attacks!) and either poisoned weapons or rending, possibly with poison working on a 3+.

Definitely more attacks, yes. But I don't think either poison or rending (unless for special Wych Weapons) really suits them. Their thing is that they supposedly don't need more than a knife. Wyches win by "easily" hitting where it counts while not getting hit themselves, not because they carry ultra-sharp or poisoned blades.

+1 Weapon Skill and +1 Attack base would seem like a good start.

Wych Weapons need to work more according to their fluff instead of just granting re-rolls. They also should be the aces up the Wyches' sleves for dealing with enemies that can't be killed with just knives.
And Bloodbrides should be able to get more Wych Weapons again, at least 4 per squad.

And finally, there needs to be something to deal with overwatch. Canceling that out is kind of huge though.
My most "balanced" idea would be an artifact for a Succubus that works like the Chaos Space Marines' Dirge Caster:
A 6'' 'no overwatch'-bubble around the carrier. Could be explained as something like a s repurposed Banshee Mask.

Also, making the Shredder a pinning weapon would help greatly - both our assault units and the Shredder itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:15

@Rokuro wrote:
Wyches win by "easily" hitting where it counts while not getting hit themselves, not because they carry ultra-sharp or poisoned blades.

That's why i suggested rending - it basically represents them jamming a knife blade into a joint between armour plates etc.

If i recall, the fluff only really supports Lelith not using poisoned blades, drugs etc, rather than all wyches, though I'll admit i've not read the background of the book recently.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:27

I'd like to keep this thread on ideas about making the codex version of Wyches useable. If you want to wishlist about what you would change about Wyches then please take it here - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:28

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
Wyches win by "easily" hitting where it counts while not getting hit themselves, not because they carry ultra-sharp or poisoned blades.

That's why i suggested rending - it basically represents them jamming a knife blade into a joint between armour plates etc.

That would be a good explanation, but I see a potential conflict there when it comes to the rules.
GW tends to give offensive special rules to weapons rather than models. Making the "Wych Knife" a rending weapon would mean attributing the special deadliness to the weapon instead of the user.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
If i recall, the fluff only really supports Lelith not using poisoned blades, drugs etc, rather than all wyches, though I'll admit i've not read the background of the book recently.

They do all fight that way (though most Wyches aren't above using dirty tricks - that takes skills too after all), but Lelith is just the best at it.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'd like to keep this thread on ideas about making the codex version of Wyches useable. If you want to wishlist about what you would change about Wyches then please take it here - Count Adhemar

Understood.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 10:41

Well that worked!! :-)

Last night's game (Maelstrom) I had a 10" wide building just in my half, Fully LoS blocking.
I placed objectives either side of it, fully in view, an inch or so from the building.

My five Wyches spent the whole game skulking back and forth between the two objectives, behind the building out of sight, in cover, Fleet helping their run to get whichever objective I needed that turn.

They finally got assaulted turn 5, in cover, with FNP, and survived.

Between objective markers, within home zone, and a kill in assault, they racked up 8 points!

I guess Warriors would have managed the same for the markers, but surviving a late game assault was definitely due to their being Wyches.

It's a little victory, but when the unit you love, that logic states should never be in your list, scores more than your whole opponent's army, it does kinda cheer you up!
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Tue Jan 13 2015, 16:06

@commandersasha wrote:
I guess Warriors would have managed the same for the markers, but surviving a late game assault was definitely due to their being Wyches.
What were they assaulted by? Because Warriors would have had the FNP and a 5+ armor save as opposed to the 4++ and FNP. So, unless power weapons were involved, the Warriors would have been almost as survivable.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 00:48

I have had luck with wyches assaulting out of cover into a unit from a flank. Just had a game that took out 2 mobs of Ork boyz with 2 close combat weapons and a nob with claw. They ended up shot to death near the end of the game. Kept him from getting into my lines though.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Wed Jan 14 2015, 19:00

Let's see.

Base cost: 10 points per mini plus upgrades

Strenghts: Fleet, high Initiative, Drugs, splinter pistols, S4 AP4 assault grenades, Power from Pain, access to Assault Vehicles and/or WWP, some reliability from wych weapons (rerolls), 4++ in combat phase (vehicle explosions included, not that you can cause them), access to a MEQ killing squad leader (Agoniser Hekatrix). Objective secure unit if not Bloodbrides and using rulebook detachment (main or allied one).

Weaknesses: S3, 6+ save, T3 and no other protection except for occasional cover.

Ways to improve: Tank-character (haemy or SF archon) to absorb wounds in shooting (LOS! any fatal wound), WWP to appear inside enemy lines in some ruins, out of sight for most shooting units. If there's no template weapons nearby, Raider with NS offers good protection; if not, use 15 model units and use cover as possible. 5 man units (for venom) only as distraction (minor against shooting, just better in combat) or HG carriers (better use warriors instead).
Also: Grisly trophies ona nearby vehicle will help the girls to stay in combat (specially when tarpitting) until they become Fearless

If you're lucky: 1 in 6 times you get T4, which is huge and you become point-wise one of the better tarpits in the game, unless you face S8+ then you're the same as always. 3 of 6 times you'll get better offensive-wise (+1A, WS or S), so not bad at all... try to survive until you reach combat and then profit.


Opinion: if you're not in combat, you should be just one turn away from it (and sticking to your Raider, or in cover and BLOS areas) or just in reserves. The most efficient use for these girls is tarpitting enemy combat units, specially those with good AP because 4++ laughs at it. You can also eat S6+ in close quarters but you won't benefit from FnP, which is fair because such units also paid a price for that power and then you won't suffer wounds in your Archon/Haemy/Succubus/Grotesques/Talos which are more effective in close combat and cost you more points. Meanwhile you will make some wound, but the main work will be done by the Hekatrix or IC attached to the unit.

IC to attach to Wyches:
1) Haemonculus: good addition as you improve both your combat phase (with an agoniser or scissorhands) and your PfP while he can tank some shots and also you get some good benefits if he's from the coven book (through covenite detachment or a coven formation), like the PfP table -Fearless and Zealot are priceless on Wyches-, the Syndriq's Sump (to maintain Fleet on the charge) or the Nightmare Doll to soak greater amounts of damage against shooting. I recommend haemy+scissors+WWP+sump with 15 wyches. The bad thing is you reach 300+ points, but it's like 20 points per miniature in a unit whith a precision DS, the said strenghts plus Fearless and FnP when it arrives, FC turn 3, Zealot (hatred) turn 4 and rage turn 5. If possible and if it benefits the rest of your army, get the Animus Vitae on another character as it'll help to make it better sooner. I like it, personally.

2)Succubus with an Archite Glaive: Succubus are good additions to wych units. Well, in fact is reverse, because wyches then become bodyguards for her, a job they do fine WHILE IN COMBAT. So offensively you have some normal attacks, the Agoniser attacks from the Hekatrix and the Glaive attacks from the Succubus, which is really good against most things you'll face in the battlefield. Also, give her and the Heka some HW grenades and you'll be able to kill vehicles quite reliably between shooting (1 BS6 HG, 2+ and 2+) and combat (2HGs, 3+ and 2+, most of the time).

3) Archon with ShadowField: he can soak a lot of shooting with his 2++ (maybe also FnP) and LOS! any S6 shots. Not the best of the three but wyches can work as a retinue somehow as with the Succubus (just run away from TEQs as you won't hurt them). Bad synergy IMHO.

4) Lelith: wyches act as a deliver tool for her. Go hunt characters in challenges, it's your most effective area (specially this edition with extra wounds going to the rest of the enemy models, not just his unit!). Everything said about the succubus except for the HW grenade thing works for her.


More tips:
A) Remember to always shoot your splinter pistols and plasma grenade unless you're not sure to make the assault roll.
B) If you end in a bad position and probably will die to shooting, go to ground. Not only you'll survive to live another turn but you'll survive to become stronger due to PfP. And, if the next turn you're becoming Fearless (usually turn 4 to 5), you won't lose a turn so you'll be a fool not doing it anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 02:45

Wow Eldur, that is the best break down I've ever read. Thanks for the most insightful article. Now the question I have, is how many in a unit? Max? Transport or not? Okay, 3 questions.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 06:47

Coaxing an enemy unit to go to ground is also a handy way to avoid overwatch fire. Even though we lost all of our pinning weapons, a Ravager with three dissies or a flyer dropping a load of pie can sometimes make the enemy squad think about going to ground voluntarily.

If your Wyches role is to mop up the dudes that escaped the Ravager or Razorwing (Raven with scythes?), then perhaps your expectations and results will be more closely aligned.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 09:57

Whilst a good list of pros and cons from a mathhammer perspective, Eldur, I don't think you've applied big-picture thinking in your post; for example:

 I run a Succubus, and whilst attaching her may be good for the Wyches, it would be disastrous for her! Stuck in a majority toughness 3 crowd, with only a fragile meatshield, she will be unlikely to make it to combat; a competent opponent will see her as a high priority target, and one round of shooting should easily destroy her, even if embarked.

They are NOT great in combat; their damage output is small, as they are too weak; they are passable at tarpitting weak to average units, but anything CC orientated ploughs through them. 4++ does not "laugh" at high AP weapons, it devalues them a bit, but only stops half the blows, and they will often be weapons that negate FNP. If you're against Power Armour, you're still only saving half his hits, whilst he is saving two thirds of yours.

In this shooting-rich edition, large infantry squads are impossible to hide, so taking 15-20 is a bad idea, as they will fall victim to blasts and templates.

Going to Ground for a combat specialist unit is the definition of improper use.



Flamers EAT wyches; I love my Wyches, and auto-include 5 because I like the models, but I have come to terms with the fact that when my opponent reaches them, they are instantly wiped. One round of shooting is normally enough, and a round of combat is the most they see after that.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 11:45

@commandersasha wrote:

They are NOT great in combat; their damage output is small, as they are too weak; they are passable at tarpitting weak to average units, but anything CC orientated ploughs through them. 4++ does not "laugh" at high AP weapons, it devalues them a bit, but only stops half the blows, and they will often be weapons that negate FNP. If you're against Power Armour, you're still only saving half his hits, whilst he is saving two thirds of yours.
But then again, power weapons that ignore the FNP(Fists? Hammers? MC CCW?) would destroy any other unit, even grotesques would feel the pain, as the weapons would be S6 and higher, thus wounding at the worst on 3+. So tarpitting a pretty strong unit with a bunch of 4++ is a good idea in my opinion.

@commandersasha wrote:

Going to Ground for a combat specialist unit is the definition of improper use.

If that unit would be dead otherwise, than that would be the best possible choice. ;-)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:22

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
But then again, power weapons that ignore the FNP(Fists? Hammers? MC CCW?) would destroy any other unit, even grotesques would feel the pain, as the weapons would be S6 and higher, thus wounding at the worst on 3+. So tarpitting a pretty strong unit with a bunch of 4++ is a good idea in my opinion

Grots would still get FNP against fists and hammers (and no idea why you think Wyches wouldn't get FNP against a MC CCW!) and have 3 wounds each so they would also be able to tarpit and, unlike Wyches, when a Grot hits you, you actually notice!

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:52

@Count Adhemar wrote:
no idea why you think Wyches wouldn't get FNP against a MC CCW!
At S6+, they're double the Wyches' toughness, so have Instant Death - no FNP against ID.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:56

@Erebus wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
no idea why you think Wyches wouldn't get FNP against a MC CCW!
At S6+, they're double the Wyches' toughness, so have Instant Death - no FNP against ID.

Perhaps we're using different acronyms? To me, MC CCW is a Master Crafted Close Combat Weapon, which would be S User. What do you mean by it?

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a way to make Wyches work?   Thu Jan 15 2015, 12:57

Monstrous creature ccw

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