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 Dark Lance vs Disentigrator

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hellios
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 12:05

I have messed around with Warriors with Dark Lances sitting in a bush somewhere, and historically I've used CWE Guardians with bright lances who would bring their own cover in the form of a Warlock (%$&^&* random psychic powers!). It isn't terrible, but I think Guardians are better (and generally they haven't been considered the greatest unit in the Eldar army) because they have greater mobility due to the fact that weapon platforms move and shoot, and as I mentioned they could bring their own cover. Still, I used them primarily as a few extra lance shots while sitting on objectives, and they would be in my back or middle lines; this would allow them to counter attack, or mop up, enemy units that got to close.

This worked fairly well with an infantry based Eldar list, and works fairly well with a partly mechanized list (because Eldar tanks are tough enough to sit around). But I don't feel this works as well with the faster, more fragile lists of the Dark Eldar. I'd rather have my anti-tank elsewhere, and my Warriors more mobile (in a raider).

Naturally, both Warriors and Guardians have a bad time when someone brings something that ignores cover like whirlwinds, or fast flamers on podding units and landspeeders. Although raider squads don't enjoy flamers that much XD.

I've used both dissi and DL Ravagers, and I think it depends on how you are running your list. I also like the Reaper from FW as a Ravager alternative.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 12:09

@Thor665 wrote:
I fail to follow - I listed Scourges, Talos, Reavers, and Warriors - which covers Blasters, Heat Lances, Haywire Blasters, et al. How do you think I'm only talking about Lances when I list all of that?

I do count the heat lance - it has inferior range and thus when I say "I have a few other options that can handle vehicles at range, albeit less range;" I am talking about them.

I understand Warriors can take Dark Lances - but I noted that I was talking about mobile platforms. Warriors with Dark lances are not mobile Platforms.
I did list them under shorter range though, since they can take Blasters.

Might be a grammar misunderstanding. You wrote: If I want lances on a mobile platform.
I took it, you don't count heat lances as, well, lances, since they are under the other options.

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 13:09

@Intoxico wrote:
...
So when asked, which weapon is better, there is no easy answer, its like asking the same question for a truck and a race car, they are different tools, when you are stripping a hullpoint or forcing snapshots you want the dark lance to do this from a distance, whenever you are wrecking any infantry from afar disintegrators hit the bail out of the park.

though we have a lot of poison shooting, a venom on avarage only forces 4 saves per turn, dropping 1 or 2 wounds per turn, wounding on a 4+ or on a 3+ with ap2 is quite a differance, when playing a mono dark eldar army 5/6 raiders with dark lances and 2 disintegrator ravagers and 1 dark lance ravager have my preferance, however its always very list dependant, rather than asking whats better, the more valid question is, what do i need it for and what tools do i have to achieve it.

I came to the exact same conclusion, and my lists now systematically include 2 disi ravagers (I play mono dark eldar) to be able to quickly get rid of bikes (3+, forcing jink), TEQ, cents, oblits, Tau, MC, etc...
These are common threats that you have to deal with quickly, and 2+ saves are usually laughing at our poison.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 18:42

@Zenotaph wrote:
Might be a grammar misunderstanding. You wrote: If I want lances on a mobile platform.
I took it, you don't count heat lances as, well, lances, since they are under the other options.
My core point was, that of mobile ranged anti-tank.
Heat lances exist, but their range fails to allow them to properly compete with the longer ranged options of Ravagers, Raiders, et al.

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Intoxico
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 19:38

I disagree thor,

On scourges and even in reaver units...the heat lance is mobile enough to get in melta range, being ap1 it becomes a far more reliable anti tank tool
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 19:44

@Intoxico wrote:
I disagree thot,

On scourges and even in reaver units...the heat lance is mobile enough to get in melta range, being ap1 it becomes a far more reliable anto tank tool

Scourges can have Haywire Blasters, four of which are more reliable and have a longer range.
Reavers are typically better against infantry. Remember that you can't shoot and assault two different targets.

The unit that makes the most out of a Heat Lance is probably the Talos. The short range doesn't bother a creature that wants to assault anyway, and it can tear up vehicles in close combat too.


Last edited by Rokuro on Tue Jan 20 2015, 19:48; edited 1 time in total
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Intoxico
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 19:48

I always deepstrike my scourges, having rending impact hits and a cluster caltrop reavers can kill enemy armor in the assault as wel.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 21:56

@Intoxico wrote:
I disagree thor,

On scourges and even in reaver units...the heat lance is mobile enough to get in melta range, being ap1 it becomes a far more reliable anti tank tool
You can argue that the heat lance is a viable tool - you cannot argue that it is better mobile ranged anti-mech because its threat bubble is 21" v. 42" for lances on a Ravager or 36" for haywires on a Scourge, et al.

A 21" threat bubble is not a viable Turn 1 threat for mech.
I take lances for that purpose - heat lances fail at it.
I will grant that they are decent turn 2-3.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 21 2015, 00:00

@Thor665 wrote:
@Intoxico wrote:
I disagree thor,

On scourges and even in reaver units...the heat lance is mobile enough to get in melta range, being ap1 it becomes a far more reliable anti tank tool
You can argue that the heat lance is a viable tool - you cannot argue that it is better mobile ranged anti-mech because its threat bubble is 21" v. 42" for lances on a Ravager or 36" for haywires on a Scourge, et al.

A 21" threat bubble is not a viable Turn 1 threat for mech.
I take lances for that purpose - heat lances fail at it.
I will grant that they are decent turn 2-3.

Just to expand on this point - the two armies start a minimum of 24" apart, a heat lance cannot bridge this gap to the enemy on turn one if you want to use the melta effect. Dark Lances don't rely on the melta effect, and have a much longer range, which not only means you can be in range on turn 1, but if you succeed in destroying your target, you may also be out of retaliation range.

Technically speaking, within the 9" melta range, the heat lance is statistically better at killing vehicles, but getting it there is more difficult if you either deep strike (when it may not arrive until turn 4) or start it on the board.

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Intoxico
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Mon Jan 26 2015, 22:36

I always play heat lances on my scourges, I either deep strike them or infiltrate them when i get the infiltrate trait.

I always run a realspace raiders detachment with 2 scourge units, 2 6 bike reaver units and 2 razorwings, I use the reavers to push the enemy back, though pricey with those 2 cluster calthrop/2 heatlance reaver units I usualy buy my army enough time to cripple them in turns 2 and 3, prefering to play the beta strike anyway the only army which is really giving me trouble is the SerpentSpam Eldar. however there is no amount of dark lances that can point for point take on Serpent Spam anyway ( or do prove me wrong and make my day! ) now im not saying that i dont take any dark lances in my army, there are always a few in my list, just to target and chip those armored threats come turn one. however i also field 10 disintegrators in the list, to really shred any infantry on the table and just a few dark lances for those high toughness targets ( wraithknights, artillery pieces or MC's )

I'm not saying that my list/choice is better, just what works for me and how i use it, hoping others will find some use it as wel.


Last edited by Intoxico on Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:16; edited 1 time in total
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:14

@Intoxico wrote:
I always play lances on my scourges, I either deep strike them or infiltrate them when i get the infiltrate trait.

Wouldn't it make more sense to give them a weapon that doesn't force you to either move or shoot accurately?
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Intoxico
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:15

Heat lances not dark lances
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 27 2015, 10:17

@Intoxico wrote:
Heat lances not dark lances

That makes more sense. I was wondering because the topic is on Dark Lances.
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