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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Mon Jan 12 2015, 20:21

But, that's the thing - I'm not sure our fliers are the answer to enemy fliers either.

2 Dark Lances or Void Lances will barely tickel most fliers, yet ours can easily be blown out of the air even by ground forces.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 13 2015, 01:03

So, I run basically exclusively Dissie Raiders and don't have a single actual Dark Lance in my list. With that said, if they still were a free upgrade, I'd likely still take the Dark Lances like in 6E. But I find that my Raider is Jinking basically every turn so I figure cheaper with a greater chance to do something is the way to go.

I admit though that I rarely face down T4 multiwound models or Terminator spam and Scourges seem like reliable enough AT when back up by Reavers. And while not ideal, I can charge the Dark Artisan in to beat up some rear armor in a pinch.

I will say Flyers are a weakness, but I prefer Scourges just for more shots in that case. And obviously Splinter shots for FMCs. Grounding something and then hitting it with Reavers to prevent it from taking off is pretty glorious...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 13 2015, 05:06

@1++ wrote:
Dont get me wrong I'm a big fan of Lance Ravagers but if you are finding that in your meta you are seeing Terminators and loads of MEQ out in the open a lot (pod armies) then Dissies on Ravagers are going to shine.

@Unorthodoxy wrote:
My question is WHY take the lances ON that specific platform when anti tank is prolific in Dark Eldar lists.

I thought the answer was quite obvious; because Ravager w/ Lances is our longest ranged AT weapon. Move 6" and fire 3 @ 36" for a 42" threat range. Move 12" and 1 of those shots is snap shooting (loss of efficiency there)

The next threat ranges for AT (also note I am not including any manipulators like WWP):
Trueborn w/ Blasters have a 24" threat range (or 30" if u disembark)
Scourge w/ Haywire have a 30" threat range
Reavers or Scourge have 30" threat range (21" to be in Melta range)

But I feel like I'm telling u things you already know. So therefore the question then becomes "If I don't want to use Ravagers as my AT, what will be my next choice and how will I use them.
I think the range issue is overrated with our speed.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 13 2015, 05:44

The above numbers include the speed of the relevant unit. Therefore they are not overrated - they are stating a truth.

You can argue that you don't need, say 42" range and are good with 30" range - but that is a different matter.

I, personally, find the range important. For instance, if I deploy and my opponent deploys, even if I put a unit on the front edge of my deployment zone my opponent can deploy his units at least 34-36" away from me even if they are directly across the table from me, simply by setting up on the back board edge. This is a common move to protect shooting support units like artillery pieces, tanks, and the ilk. At that point, if my range is 30" counting my movement - I cannot shoot him with my unit. If my range is 42" then I can. It doesn't matter that my army is known for 'speed' or not in that situation. It's one of the reasons I like the Ravager, the range is important on Turn 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 13 2015, 08:44

I thought that scourge haywire threat range posted looked a bit odd - am I wrong or should it be (assuming I'm not snap-shooting):

Scourges with haywire - 36"

That or it should be listed as scourges with blasters - 30"

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 13 2015, 16:09

Yeah, haywire scourges have a 36" bubble.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 13 2015, 22:36

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I thought that scourge haywire threat range posted looked a bit odd - am I wrong or should it be (assuming I'm not snap-shooting):

Scourges with haywire - 36"

That or it should be listed as scourges with blasters - 30"

I just have been thinking Blasters but typing (and meaning to say) Haywire

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 01:09


I designed a list with no ravagers that is tac -

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11014p160-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#bottom

Yes it uses eldar allies of course. I see no good reason not to take some eldar, tbh. Why take ravs when the option is there?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 08:42

@egorey wrote:
I see no good reason not to take some eldar, tbh. Why take ravs when the option is there?

All depends on your outlook really - I'd rather spend the day sat in a brightly lit room with no stimulus whatsoever than admit I need help from those poncy, airy-fairy, arty-farty goody two-shoes.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 09:25

I didn't start playing Dark Eldar in order to play something that isn't Dark Eldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 10:28

@egorey wrote:

I designed a list with no ravagers that is tac -

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11014p160-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#bottom

Designing a list without Ravagers is a hell of a lot easier when you're allying in the most broken army in the game.

It's like saying "I just designed a list without bombs - I just allied in some tactical nuclear strikes instead."

@egorey wrote:

Yes it uses eldar allies of course. I see no good reason not to take some eldar, tbh. Why take ravs when the option is there?

Some possible reasons:

1) I started Dark Eldar to play Dark Eldar. Not 'The Dark Eldar and Happy Friends Hour'.

2) The fact that the option is there does not instantly make me poo out Eldar models. Unfortunately, my copy of the DE codex did not appear to come with a free Eldar codex and free Eldar models. So, just as when I'm using DE, I'm limited to the models I actually own - which do not include any Eldar.

3) Even if I had the funds to start an Eldar army (I don't), I don't see why I'd want to reward GW for awful codex design or for making the game pay-to-win.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 11:50

Indeed. Noone should use Eldar allies as an argument for anything. Broken beyond belief.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 13:16


I pretty much expected these replies.

Indeed. Noone should use Eldar allies as an argument for anything. Broken beyond belief.:
 

Designing a list without Ravagers is a hell of a lot easier when you're allying in the most broken army in the game.:
 

Typical responses. Yes, Eldar is a powerful army. But lately other armies have been reinforced by detachments, formations and their own allies too. Eldar are not auto-win anymore guys. I'm playing DE - I have one battle brother. I see no reason not to use them. We are talking about competitive lists here not casual or fluffy lists.

Don't misunderstand me. I get what you are saying. But if I'm going to a tournament I'm not going to handicap my options because GW ha a problem balancing the meta.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 13:43

It's a philosophical point though. I'm not going to derail the original thread by going off at a tangent, but there may be any number of good reasons why you don't/can't take Eldar allies, you're just choosing to ignore them (the tournament may not allow allies for example). Fundamentally though, whilst Dark Eldar and Eldar are Battle Brothers in the allies matrix - they still can't stand each other. They don't fight together on a regular basis, it's just that if the situation arises where there's a choice between eldar dying and other races dying instead, all eldar would choose the other race.

There was (not sure if it's in the new dex) a timeline detail in the last codex explaining why the dark eldar came to Iyanden's aid when the Tyranids invaded their craftworld. Short answer: if you'd been wiped out we wouldn't have been able to watch you suffer.

Clearly that's only relevant if you play with the background in mind instead of going all out for the nastiest list possible - but then why aren't you just playing Eldar?

Back to the OP - you're choosing to answer the question Dark Lance vs Disintegrator by saying 'Fusion Gun'. It's about as helpful as saying 'spade' or 'fish' in terms of answering the question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at you, or trying to start an argument, I completely understand the point you're making it's just that if you want to know why people take ravagers instead of fire dragons, it's because they don't want to use Eldar units in a Dark Eldar list.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 16:50

Back to the OP - you're choosing to answer the question Dark Lance vs Disintegrator by saying 'Fusion Gun'. It's about as helpful as saying 'spade' or 'fish' in terms of answering the question. Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at you, or trying to start an argument, I completely understand the point you're making it's just that if you want to know why people take ravagers instead of fire dragons, it's because they don't want to use Eldar units in a Dark Eldar list. wrote:

It is all a matter of perspective indeed. And I never take offense. I'm sure I could put together another all DE list without ravagers too. I just never had any luck at all with my ravs.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Wed Jan 14 2015, 21:20

New to this forum, however loving every bit of it, im quite the competitive player and a trackrecord to go with that.

Before going any further, whenever asked what to bring to competitively counter the current meta, the answer would always be, NOT DARK ELDAR. Why, well obviously the Eldar codex is the most broken piece of $%^@# gw wrote. One could go on about how they didn't notice this whilst play testing, however currently irralivant. I would bring my daemons, and feel quite confident playing them im almost any matchup...

However when asked, what army do you enjoy playing the most, DARK ELDAR for sure, there is nothing about the army i dont like, and if it weren't for the broken eldar codex, idd even feel quite confident playing them as a competitive army.

So what are Dark Eldar then Lacking, IMHO its a durable platform on the table, we have no way of placing a unit or model somewere and making it a problem for our opponant to deal with, this means that whenever we put our units to a task, we need them to complete that task and be perfectly fine with them dying the next turn.

Personally I feel that only the Real Space Raiders is what makes Dark Eldar work, we need those extra slots without having to pay another Archan Tax for it ( HQ's are all just point sinks ), Now whenever I attack a certain target I want to have at least 2 units able to engage them. I love the Heat Lance Scourges, never left home without 2 units of those ( 1 shard 4 Heatlances ) this unit buys me a deepstriking treat that always carries its water the turn it drops, killing enemy armor and then forcing a full unit to fire on a 120pts unit that already did its job and cant be ignored is vital.

Another anti armor pressure tool i like is the reaver unit, 6 reavers with 2 clusters and 2 lances, whilst pricey, has a wide treat range and forces the enemy to react from the first turn, even in death the unit can ensure our game makeing units see the end of the battle.

Using speed and range for safety come 5 man warrior units with a venom, a mere 105 points does just enough damage at range to not be a focus the first turns, when the venoms finally go down you really need only one warrior to survive on an objective.

Now come the Ravagers, Personally I like both options, either keeping the ravager ultra cheap and use it as a long range infantry lawnmower or pay the lances and aid our other units in killing enemy armor. Id suggest always take one of both, the third ravager is list dependent, I use a spiritseer with 5 wraithgaurd tagging along my WWP archon to be a deepstriking nightmare and forcing some fucossed attention. when not fielding those, try taking 3 or 4 raiders with a single dark lance, the dark lance is only there to pen the enemy vehicle, not to kill it, heat lances kill armor better.

Another scalpel I've grown really fond of is a Razorwing with 4 monoscythe 2 Dis and SplinterCannon. Speed is our greatest anti flyer weapon, simply moving out of its treat arc and ignoring it, the razorwing lacks the firepower to dogfight enemy flyers so i simply use them to clear certain zones on the table, usually i deepstrike and redeploy on the 2nd turn and use the razorwings to kill the centre of the enemies army, giving my deepstriking forces some support.

So when asked, which weapon is better, there is no easy answer, its like asking the same question for a truck and a race car, they are different tools, when you are stripping a hullpoint or forcing snapshots you want the dark lance to do this from a distance, whenever you are wrecking any infantry from afar disintegrators hit the bail out of the park.

though we have a lot of poison shooting, a venom on avarage only forces 4 saves per turn, dropping 1 or 2 wounds per turn, wounding on a 4+ or on a 3+ with ap2 is quite a differance, when playing a mono dark eldar army 5/6 raiders with dark lances and 2 disintegrator ravagers and 1 dark lance ravager have my preferance, however its always very list dependant, rather than asking whats better, the more valid question is, what do i need it for and what tools do i have to achieve it.

well forgive me for anything not written perfectly, english is not my native language.

I hope what i wrote helped on your future raids

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Thu Jan 15 2015, 03:55

The Dark Artisan formation with a WWP on the haemonculus is a good way of delivering a durable unit to exactly where you want it. It is a hard formation to destroy and i have had great success with it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 08:36

@Thor665 wrote:
If I want lances on a mobile platform my options are as follows;

Raider
Ravager
Razorwing
Voidraven (basically)

I have a few other options that can handle vehicles at range, albeit less range;

Scourges
Talos
Reavers
Warriors/Trueborn/Archon w. Blasters

So, only dark- and voidlance counts as lance?
At least count the heatlance, since it have the word lance in it. Very Happy

And warriors can equip darklances, too.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 09:56

@Zenotaph wrote:
And warriors can equip darklances, too.

Warriors are better off with Blasters. Dark Lances slow them down too much. And that goes double for Scourges.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 10:07

@Rokuro wrote:
Warriors are better off with Blasters. Dark Lances slow them down too much. And that goes double for Scourges.

I know, but it is a fact, they can. In 6th, I fielded 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances. It wasn't that bad.
Not perfect, but not bad. Often, they seemed to unattractive or too small a unit,
so they weren't shot for 2, or 3 turns. Think, what they could do in 2, or 3 turns.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 10:43

@Zenotaph wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
Warriors are better off with Blasters. Dark Lances slow them down too much. And that goes double for Scourges.

I know, but it is a fact, they can. In 6th, I fielded 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances. It wasn't that bad.
Not perfect, but not bad. Often, they seemed to unattractive or too small a unit,
so they weren't shot for 2, or 3 turns. Think, what they could do in 2, or 3 turns.

2 glances/pens? lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 10:46

@Zenotaph wrote:
I know, but it is a fact, they can. In 6th, I fielded 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances. It wasn't that bad.
Not perfect, but not bad. Often, they seemed to unattractive or too small a unit,
so they weren't shot for 2, or 3 turns. Think, what they could do in 2, or 3 turns.

I think I remember trying that once. They got shot and died.

That being said, I don't think it was an awful use of points. But, now that you have to take at least 5 Trueborn, it's looking a lot less attractive.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 10:59

@The Shredder wrote:
I think I remember trying that once. They got shot and died.

That being said, I don't think it was an awful use of points. But, now that you have to take at least 5 Trueborn, it's looking a lot less attractive.

Nothing more? No cover? Who shot? And with what?

Yup, deploying 5 is no good. So, I got 3 men for my next kabalite squads. Let's see, what I will do about that...

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 11:15

@Zenotaph wrote:

Nothing more? No cover? Who shot? And with what?

I don't remember. This was years ago now and all I remember is that they died really really early on.

Most likely they would have been in ruins, but I can't even remember who I was playing against when I used them - let alone what killed them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance vs Disentigrator    Tue Jan 20 2015, 12:04

@Zenotaph wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
If I want lances on a mobile platform my options are as follows;

Raider
Ravager
Razorwing
Voidraven (basically)

I have a few other options that can handle vehicles at range, albeit less range;

Scourges
Talos
Reavers
Warriors/Trueborn/Archon w. Blasters

So, only dark- and voidlance counts as lance?
At least count the heatlance, since it have the word lance in it. Very Happy

And warriors can equip darklances, too.
I fail to follow - I listed Scourges, Talos, Reavers, and Warriors - which covers Blasters, Heat Lances, Haywire Blasters, et al. How do you think I'm only talking about Lances when I list all of that?

I do count the heat lance - it has inferior range and thus when I say "I have a few other options that can handle vehicles at range, albeit less range;" I am talking about them.

I understand Warriors can take Dark Lances - but I noted that I was talking about mobile platforms. Warriors with Dark lances are not mobile Platforms.
I did list them under shorter range though, since they can take Blasters.

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