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Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?
Dark Artisan
52%
 52% [ 12 ]
Grotesquerie
48%
 48% [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 23
 

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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:17

So it seems that apart from the specific use of the Scalpel Squadron, the Grotesquerie and the Dark Artisan formations are our favorite and most used formations out of the coven book.

Now as I understand, most tournaments limit the use of formations to one. I know the campaign I'm about to start with some friends does.

Which brings me to the question - if you had to choose between the Dark Artisan and the Grotesquerie, which would it be and why?

I'll also start with my selection, which is the Dark Artisan. I really like both formations, but I believe that the DA adds more to the 3 units than the Grotesquerie. Without the DA I cannot deep strike my slow pain engines. Without the Grotesquerie I can still buy a unit or two of Grots, stick them in a raider and add a Succubus or a Haemonculus, and I get almost the same hitting power as in the fomation. Therefore the DA wins in my books.

What are your thoughts?
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:40

This is very hard. I went with Grots because DA is amazing, no doubt about that. But Grotesquery with the "better combat drugs" roll can get into the fight turn 2, there are 30 wounds if you put another char with the other squad, they are lumpy models and can make huge multiassaults where rampage forces them to almost always win, they distract from the rest if the army turn 1 and to kill them you really have to commit everything. But a really hard question!

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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:53

I also voted Dark Artisan, just for the sake of versatility. With at least one, but up to three flamer templates AND potentially a TL splinter cannon, they don't actually need to get into assault to threaten a unit. The S3 flamers are especially useful against larger, low T units, where they might otherwise get overwhelmed by number of attacks.
Grotesquerie is versatile when it comes to targets, but they basically have only one way to deal with them; assault. The slightly lower T and poor Save makes them much less of an area denial unit, at which the Dark Artisan can excell.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:54

I found this a bit easier than Grub - but then that's possibly because my usual game size is 1500pts, and I can't realistically fit in everything I consider I need at that level if I include a worthwhile grotesquerie, whereas I can with a Dark Artisan.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:57

DA for me. Used it in several games now and it's been incredibly effective and unbelievably hard to kill.

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 13:32

My DA is a lovely unit that does a lot of damage, at 1500 I probably would run it over grots due to point constraints. My choice was effectively 51% Grots and 49% DA. In most of my bigger games I run both but the grots just take out more stuff more reliably (strength 3 flamers are next to useless if you ask me!) bit still a tough one.
Grots for me have been better against tau, Gk (numbers over force weapons), marines, necrons and orks. Dark artisans has been better against terminators, Imperial guard and some walker spam lists I've played. So I would also argue that it depends what your up against because both are undoubtedly good at what they do!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 13:35

When you guys run DA at 1500pts, how do you run it?

And, what do you run it with?
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ArchonVaz
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 14:42

I went for the dark artisan, I have found it a very effective unit and extremely hard to kill. All My opponents actually commented and said they could not believe how unbelievably effective the unit was.

I have never lost a model from the formation in a dozen games and they have caused nothing but destruction, especially with a webway portal and flamed weapons!

I also agree with the comments regarding points constraint and have found the DA easier to accommodate into army lists.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 14:52

Dark Artisans kept cheap is the best bet. Chronos with probe, haemocules with wwp and scissorhand, talos with ichorinjector, maybe heatlance if many vehicles. I don't think they need any more points invested, better saving on the upgrades to spend on the rest of the army. Blasters >>>> liquidiers.

Grots "cheap" as well, squads of 4 with a haemocules with sump and scissorhand, raiders with sails. Bish bash bosh its clobbering time.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 15:04

I've only used it the once, and though it didn't kill much (got stuck in combat with a chuffing soul grinder who kept passing invun saves, including one for the heat lance overwatch shot that would have blown it up) it did help to win the game by a) tying up the soulgrinder for long enough that we could kill it, b) keeping my warlord alive so as to prevent losing STW victory point, and c) holding an objective at the end of the game, netting 3 vp's.

I haven't still got the list for that game on my phone, but i went basic too, spirit probe, ichor injector and heat lance, scissorhand - didn't bother with the wwp, just deployed it pretty far forward and acted threatening (including talking up its abilities beforehand - sneaky underhanded DE player, making my opponents aim for the toughest thing in my army Twisted Evil )

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 20:05

So it seems most of you run the DA with an Ichor Injector - I haven't actually tried one yet simply because the S3 and D6 AP look very lackluster to me on paper. Plus you lose 1 attack, right?

Also, unfortunately I can't second the whole "it's crazy tough" stance (after only 1 game though). First my Cronos got blown up by Black Knight bikers with twin linked plasma weapons. Then, after destroying the unit and another biker unit, my Talos and my Warlord (with doll) got ripped to shreds by mass bolter fire Sad I blame it on myself though, I'm sure I couldve done something better in my first game in 10 years!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 20:24

@BlackCadian wrote:
So it seems most of you run the DA with an Ichor Injector - I haven't actually tried one yet simply because the S3 and D6 AP look very lackluster to me on paper.
That's the Liquifier Gun, and the reason many of us can't in good conscience recommend it.

The Ichor Injector is the S:user melee weapon with Fleshbane and Lethal Dose.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 20:45

Its the lethal dose which is sublime, you come up against any riptide, dreadknight etc with ap2 instant death you can put a sad face on any player. I think of it as the extra cannon on the venom, iyou just always have it and count the model as 10 points higher!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 21:18

Quick question about the Ichor Injector, is it still worth it if you won't be facing a lot of multi-wound MCs? I ask with TWC specifically in mind. Yes, they have two wounds, but would re-rolling my misses against them and wounding on two's be better than hoping for a six and not re-roling any ones?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 21:38

I guess when it comes down to wargear and even army lists it can be meta dependent. It can also be useful for dealing with hqs, multiwound stuff whatever. When it comes to not knowing your opponent it can be useful, even against has or just dealing with other deathstars, possibly better then gaining shred. Not going to use mathammer as it don't work. If you get a reroll on 1s and you need threes you are just going to roll 2s!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 01:57

Grotesquerie.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 03:44

I'm mobile and so unable to vote, but if I could I would vote for dark artisian. Talos and chronos are virtually unplayable without it while grotesques are still very good. More over, one unit of grotesques are usually enough to accomplish what you really want them for, that is accompanying your hq, and while the second unit is nice tohave they may not be the best use of points

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:38

I voted for the Dark Artisan, i find they are an eaier points fit in most armies, are stupid tough to kill, in about 8 games i have only lost models once, against inq, having been charged by a massive inquisition death star with those ridiculous nades, that make you lower inititaive and hit yourself or something.
every other game, they take all the shooting the enemy can throw at it, deepstrike next to a horrid looking enemy unit, shoot it a little bit, before standing next to it for a turn looking menacing, and forcing that unit to charge it or risk being charged themselves. of course in cc they are ridiculous!!

I havent had as much luck with the grotesquerie, but i think that is largely to do with the fact, that i am still learning the game, and i havent really gotten the best out of them yet.
im planning on running them a couple of times in the near future and seeing how they go.

jk


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 10:51

Dark Artisan every time. It's almost impossible to NOT make good use of the points you've spent. The grots are a LOT more expensive and if for some reason their raiders get popped, they can be completely useless.

My simple opinion Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 11:05

When you guys run Dark Artisan at 1500pts, what do you use with them?

Do you use a Covenite detachment? Or, do you support them with a DE CAD? Or, other formations?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 11:20

@The Shredder wrote:
When you guys run Dark Artisan at 1500pts, what do you use with them?

Do you use a Covenite detachment? Or, do you support them with a DE CAD? Or, other formations?

I tend to play 1750 but I use a DE CAD plus Eldar allies.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie?   Fri Jan 09 2015, 11:28

I have plans for a pure coven list, but at present I'd use Kabalite elements, and possibly scalpel squadron.

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