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 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Wed Jan 07 2015, 20:40

TL:DR below for those who just want the point!

Greetings to all you Dark Kin out there! First post here after finding this forum a couple days ago. Decided to delve back into the 40k hobby after a long long time away and have chosen to re-collect the army that originally got me hooked on the hobby.Sadly I no longer have my old (really old!) army but I think I have a good number of unmade troop and reavers (and possibly a raider or two) buried somewhere in the house from the first run of DE miniatures (thin that was 3rd edition? So long ago!).

Anyway less of the introduction, I've been pouring over the codecs planning out a framework list before I start collecting new miniatures and I thought I'd share some maths I hammered out. This data relates to splinter weapon shooty squads and their relative value on the board. It doesn't account for a wide variety of situational factors but you can judge the risks/rewards of those yourselves with the help of this information here.

Firstly (and many of you have presumably already figured this out) the splinter cannon is hands down the most cost-effective source of shooty in the army and though splinter weapons come in several flavours leveraging the canon is key to pumping out maximum firepower. The best place to start with this analysis is with the Venom and her beautiful twin splinter cannons. These didn't exist when I last played so I was pleasantly surprised by their effectiveness. I will use the Venom frame for the baseline comparison as it's the cheapest possible source of splinter cannons.


Venom: 16.266 pts per save. Your Venom will pump out a steady 4 saves per turn with twin canons and no extra's. A nice reliable firing platform.

10 Warriors: 11.887 / 19.019 pts per save. Your standard infantry unit with 1 splinter canon, 9 splinter rifles and naught else. firing at max rifle range this unit is somewhat inferior to an empty Venom. However at double tap range it is significantly more cost effective. In fact at double tap range this unit is the most value in the list for splinter fire by a long shot (pun intended!). However the only two scenario's I could see this unit being of a higher table-top value than a Venom would be if you deep struck via a HQ into the heart of the opponent or if you dug them in to defend against an opponent you know 100% will rush you (and you want to play a static defence game for a change). Doubling the squad to 20 gives no change in value/effectiveness so you can take them in sizes or 10 or 20 to suit your needs (anything but 10 man and 20 man blocks will cut into their value). But you'd only take them in blocks of 20 if you're rolling with a wave attack or deep defence strategy. One last thing to consider with warriors, a 10 man squad will pump out 5 saves a turn at close range but will cost you more than a Venom. But unless you can engineer a means of keeping the enemy within that double tap sweet spot without overrunning your squad(s) I'm not sure how you could leverage the significant cost effectiveness of this unit. A value added sacrificial pawn maybe?

5 Warriors in a Venom: 14.33 / 18.548 pts per save. These guys sport nothing but their splinter rifles and the wind in their hair. At max rifle range they are slightly more cost effective than foot slogging warriors (barely) but at double tap range they are somewhat worse. You'll note however they are more value for money than empty Venoms. This is interesting and not what I was expecting at all. If you have to fill troop slots but don't have a real use for those troops (other than babysitting objectives) then it's worth considering putting a bare bones squad in a Venom (you were probably doing this anyway) but instead of dumping them on an objective why not get right into your opponents face and force him to take these cheap throw-away units seriously? If you can limit how much fire they draw and keep them alive and in your foes face then you can leverage some good value out of them and still use them for end-game capture once you've got your points worth. A nice surprise this one for a unit that I have been dumping into my list designs as mandatory troop fillers. The great thing about this is that you're looking at a tad more than 7 saves per turn average at close range! If you can get two turns worth of shooting out of a mandatory troop choice that could quite easily break an enemy infantry unit. Give it 3 turns of firing and you could probably put some hurt on high toughness, high value targets. And you only took these guys to fill a couple FO slots!

4 Slyth in a Venom: 20.645 pts per save. This unit is worse than footslogging warriors stuck at long range. You'd think the Shardcarbine would be a better weapon. Well actually it is, it's much better. In fact this unit can pump out 8 wounds a turn and a greater range than the cheaper 5 Warrior Venom team! The problem it has however is the cost of the Slth to begin with - they're pricey as hell! Adding a 5th man doesn't help you, the value gets worse (each man eats into the innate value of the canons aboard the Venom). However if you were looking for a shooty retinue for an Archon then this is a great option. With the wounds it can dish out you could easily kite an enemy unit or operate this squad as a helicopter gunship strafing around the flanks of your foe. If you want to do this then I'd recommend ignoring an Archon (certainly don't roll with a blaster Archon in this unit) and choosing instead a Haemonculus. Give him a Hexrifle to synergize with the assault weaponry of the Slyths or go cheeky and give him a liquifier gun. With the liquifier you could very easily charge what you don't kill in the shooting phase mopping up any infantry units your opponent put on his flanks to deter you. It's an expensive units but if you look at it as a meat shield (and a pretty good one at that) for a combat HQ character or a hard-hitting flank denial unit or as a second wave shock force then it's not very expensive. You'd want to keep it alive going into the second half of the game (but you can't afford to keep it out of trouble entirely) but with the per turn shooting impact and the possibility of a follow up assault it can be a late game hard hitter. But for the purposes of this analysis it's not cost effective as your baseline fire support.

9 Slyth in a Raider: 22.137 pts per save. A raider fitted with a splinter rack and obligatory night shields (you're going to need that for this unit) with stock disintegrator cannon crewed by 9 Slyths and what would have to be a mandatory HQ character. This unit is too expensive to be your go-to fire support choice, you could almost buy 5 Venoms for the same points... If you're picking up this slytherin gunboat it's only for one purpose - a massive deep alpha strike. This unit without HQ support is churning out 13 saves per turn with change and one of those is ap 2. You could go for an all-out gamble and add a tenth Slyth in there and roll the dice on deep strike and this would earn you nearly 15 saves a turn. But if you can manage 2 turns of firepower out of it before it dies (assuming you screw up the deep strike) you've probably done very well with it. It might happen, these guys look pretty tough. Might work better if you can drop a Chronos in there too to boost their FNP. If so this unit could be a real problem dropped into the heart of your opponent. Go big or go home with it though - you want a massive alpha strike or a webway death star (a shooting star with the impact it will have crashing right into your foe!) to come in with it so it doesn't get vapourised as soon as it lands. Unless you're going in for such a strategy then avoid this one - your high fire-rate shardcannons don't synergize well enough with splinter racks when the base model cost is so high. As mentioed above this unit chucks out 15 saves a turn

10 Warriors in a Raider. I won't list the values here, they're practically the same as those of a footslogging unit. At double tap range it's almost identical (a couple tenths of a point more expensive). At max rifle range it is somewhat more costly - 3.5 points per save more expensive. The 10 man foot unit and the 10 man raider unit give almost the same mathematical value (foot squad winning out by a small margin) but the raider squad is more than worth that marginal increase because of what it gives you - speed, mobility and an ap 2 weapon. Looking at the maths there's almost no value in taking 10 man foot squads. If you're gonna take foot then take 20 or take none at all, mathematically they are inferior to raider squads. In fact within close rapid fire range this unit will give your army the biggest punch for the lowest cost possible. However as soon as you junk you're losing about 1 save per turn on your weapon output and the value drops to only 16.88 pts per save. This is about par with the baseline Venom and with all the other benefits of the raider (and the possibility for winning future jink-free turns) this is still more valuable than foot troops every time (even in static gunline defence I'd wager).

10 Splinterborn in a Raider: 16.340 - 22.024 points per save. 10 Trueborn, 2 splinter canons, 8 splinter rifles. At max rifle range this is again another expensive unit that under performs for its points cost, but when you bring it into double tap range it is pretty much on par with the baseline Venom. You're dishing out 10 saves per turn with this unit. If you were planning on taking Venoms for shooting alone (ignoring any secondary purposes you might have for potential passengers of those Venoms) then it might be worth consolidating those points into one of these beefy units instead. Might be putting your eggs in one basket (there's value in dispersing your firepower amongst more numerous and smaller units) but it could be said that it's easier to keep a single raider out of trouble than the 3 or so Venoms you would have to protect instead to get the same bang for your buck. A single unit that can pump out 10 saves a turn to a single foe whilst protecting itself from return fire is a very appealing unit. Use it to crush a flank in turns 1-2 to give yourself free reign of a board edge.

5 Splinterborn in a Venom: 15 - 16.683 points per save. Now we're talking! We've now hit upon the first of our units that is actually BETTER than the Venom! This unit costs as much as 2.3 Venoms but it performs better than those 2.3 Venoms. At max rifle range there's a marginal decrease in cost effectiveness but you'll never notice this in a game. However within double tap range you're getting more value, a fair bit more value. Whist it won't always be prudent to be right up in the enemies face as yo'd need to be to leverage those rifle shots the fact that you have 4 canons in this single unit means you can safely engage at long rifle range, or even max canon range and still dish out significant damage, only closing to leverage that extra value when it's safe to do so. The 4 cannons alone can force 8 saves a turn on a unit. If they're out of cover or weak on armour you could very well put enough hurt down with those alone to negate any meaningful return fire. Your rifles will deal another save in each rapid fire range too. In there optimal kill zone 2 of these units could dish out 20 saves. Infantry is going to melt before them. Great value for money! 2.3 Venoms is going to get you 28 shots whilst 1 of these units brings 30 shots to the table.

10 Splinterscourge: 15.73 pts per save. The interesting winner in the damage per cost contest! I figured the shardcarbine would be a deciding factor in firepower and whilst the splinter cannon is clearly the king of anti-infantry firepower in the DE army the shardcarbine is definitely its partner in crime. 10 Scourge, 4 splinter canons, 6 shardcarbines, no upgrades. These buggers can churn out firepower likes nobo ies business! Back in the day I used to like running my Scourge on the flanks with splinter canons making them as annoying as possible. Back in the day they were one of few assault weapons (and they were probably one of the best too) back when rapid fire first became a thing and units couldn't move if they wanted to fire beyond 12". Armies were more static and Scourges were one of the most agile units there was. Anyway I don't know what the years have been lie since that time (from what I've picked up on Scourges weren't so hot in the last edition??) but in the current codex they're the undisputed kings of anti-personal fire-support. They have as much movement as the Venom and both can deep strike equally well. Whilst the Venom may be able to fire it's canons at full effect more reliably (with relentless) the Scourge has two advantages over the Venom. Firstly they're a tougher unit. Two things will take out your Scourges - bad placement/positioning and unlucky pie plates or suddenly appearing anti-infantry firepower (from deep strike, outflanking etc). But those same things will take down Venoms too (if you leave them exposed they'll die to anti-tank and a dread with lascannons could drop behind them as much as a flamer dread could drop behind your Scourges). In a predictable and controlled game (such as DE should be working for if they hope to win) you should be mitigating surprises and risks to both types of unit and if you're doing this well the maths shows that Scourges dish out more firepower for less cost. And they ave the advantage that they can take more wounds than a Venom can. The other advantage that Scourges have is that most units that can  hurt infantry are other infantry. You keep the Venom out of small arms fire if you can (unless you're leveraging rifle double tapping for extra firepower) so you're looking at heavy weapons targeting them whilst they kill the squadies. But most heavy weapons are on vehicles that you're Venom is ignoring (and praying the lances from your raiders/ravagers can take them out). The Scourges on the other hand are focussing on killing the squadies too but it's those guys who can mostly harm them in return. If you can keep your Scourges in cover and out of LoS from as much as possible then the thing that can harm them most is what's right in front of them in their crosshairs. With all the firepower they can pump out (forcing 14 saves per turn with full salvo fire and 11+ with reduced fire on the move) each turn they're killing the thing that's a danger to them. Even a single other mediocre support unit could ensure your Scourges smash a squad a turn. And the best thing about these guys is you deep strike them. Everyone knows youre gonna deep strike your Scourges behind enemy lines and assault them with all that firepower. Except you're not, you're dropping them on your flank mid board where they proceed melt whatever infantry is out there trying to block your right (or left) hook. But your opponent figured you were gonna try and hit up his command squad or his devastators (which you could very well take out in a single turn) and deployed squads much further back to protect them. The threat of your dakka Scourges just bought you another 12" of empty board! To create the same threat with Venoms you'd have to deep strike 3 of them and try to mind game your opponent into buying that you're gonna drop into his back line. Nobodies gonna buy that even if only for the statistical unlikelihood of you pulling it off (you could of course double bluff him and do it anyway to throw him completely off guard!)

So this turned out to be way longer than I thought (and pretty rambling too!) but there's some important things to take from this.

TL:DR:

1.) Splinter Canon Scourges are your best source of impact anti-infantry firepower.
2.) Splinterborn in Venoms are almost as good as your Scourges (better in fact within a very narrow window).
3.) Naked Venoms are your third best source of firepower and your greatest source of dispersed firepower.
4.) 10 man warrior squads with splinter canon in a splinter rack disintegrator raider are very very cost effective if and when you fire <12" without snap firing the transport.

I'd personally look at Scourges supported by splinterborn as my go to anti-infantry, tossing in empty Venoms to pad it out. Those empty Venoms also give you back up transports when your splinterborn get shot down so that's handy. I'd consider replacing the splinterborn with infantry in raiders depending on circumstance. They'd be a better unit for holding/camping/patrolling an objective (bigger squad = more wounds). to get he best out of them I'd settle for strafing runs every second turn, using your jinking turns to turbo to a different board side to alternate the focus of your fire.

LEt me know what you think. I've not played 40k in a long long time but I've watched a lot of bat reps of the game. I'm pretty well versed with the underlying principles of wargaming and gaming in general (never stopped gaming, just stopped playing 40k) but there will be some holes in my reasoning for sure. I've tried to consider scenario's where the maths wouldn't lend itself to the tabletop reality but there wil certainly be something I've missed due to my lack of experience with the game as it currently stands. Regardless this has been helpful for me to focus some thoughts on the DE army to better prepare me for the day I can bring the Dark Kin back to the table top again!

> If you made it this far well done! That was an epic wall of text!
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Wed Jan 07 2015, 21:26

Great first post!

My gut feeling with the splinter warriors in a raider with splinter racks is to drop the cannon (assuming your goal is to remain in rapid fire range). The splinter cannon only adds one extra shot on the move, not worth its points in this scenario. It also means you lose a splinter shot at 24" when on the move (because it only has 18" range). Of course when stationary its a nice option to have, but I never feel my raiders stand still enough to justify its cost. Not taking the splinter cannon pays for my splinter racks too.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Wed Jan 07 2015, 22:21

Great first post and welcome. I'm all about finding out point efficiencies when list building, whether it's point per wound, point per save or point per damage result.

With that said, this is really only part of the initial stage of list building. You then have to factor in things like player style, unit combat efficiency on the battle field (do you want to cause damage from T1 onwards, or be more effective mid-late game) and of course force org slot availability. But you have provided a good platform for one to build lists on

You are now making me think about dropping a warrior Venom for a 5 man 2 Cannon Splinterscourge unit Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Wed Jan 07 2015, 22:46

Interesting. Are these numbers counting the splinter cannons as moving?

I had reached the same conclusion as Mushkilla, that splinter cannons are not worth taking on gunboat raiders with splinter racks.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Wed Jan 07 2015, 22:59

I feel I should also bring up opportunity cost.

e.g. With Venoms and Warriors, they're going to be carrying all or mostly splinter weapons anyway. So, they're already basically set in an anti-infantry role.

However, with Scourges or Trueborn, this means taking splinter weapons instead of Blasters, Heat Lances or Haywire Blasters.

Depends how much you value massed anti-vehicle weapons, I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 00:18

I do love me some stats Smile

Bear in mind that when you move your Splinterborn Venom, you will lost 18"range and a lump of shots....
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 02:45

I feel the analysis on Scourges is flawed.

Each Shardcarb scourge is equivalent to 16pts/save up 18".

Each Cannon scourge is equivalent to 23.25pts/save up to 36" while moving, and 15.5pts/save up to 36" while stationary.

Realistically, if you're deepstriking them as AI, you should never take the cannons as they will be less efficient the turn they land and will most likely be moving to avoid CC anyway.

Cannon scourge are only best efficient as a back/midfield AI unit 5 strong to minimize points wasted on 18" carbs.

Then there's the previous point of "why are we wasting one of our best AT units for more poison attacks?" Although, I admit that they are as efficient as venoms at poison shooting, but at a closer range or as a static unit, neither of which are appealing to me.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 03:22

Splinterborn Venom you kind of want up close anyway. I intend on running mix of Blaster and Splinter for my Trueborns for maximum flexibility.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:02

@PainReaver wrote:
Splinterborn Venom you kind of want up close anyway. I intend on running mix of Blaster and Splinter for my Trueborns for maximum flexibility.

But you have to move them to get them close up .... so they very inefficient until you have stopped, which will probably be never.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:11

To simplify the Splinterborn in a Venom, I'd like to compare them directly to a standard Kabalite Warrior squad in a Venom.

Assuming you are going to be moving the Venom, which I can almost guarantee you always will be:

The Splinterborn push out 11 shots at 18".  The Splinterborn costs 85 points.

The Warrior squad makes 5 shots at 24".  The Warrior squad costs 40 points.

A Venom shoots 12 shots at 36" and costs 65 points.

Taking a second warrior squad (cheaper) enables you to take another Venom.  

Pretty obvious to me which is better.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 15:35

You wouldn't take splinterscourge to sit in the backfield, hat's not getting the most out of your unit. Scourge shold never be used long range. You have 4 good weapons you can give them - shardcarbines, splnter cannons, heat lances and haywire blasters. Of those 2 are 18" range and one is 24". If you'r getting 24" away may as well get 18" away, it isn't gonna risk them much more than being at 24" will (at this range you will need to find good cover anyway and will be exposed to some risk regardless). May as well get used to using your scourges at close-mid range and as mid-table supporting units. If you were to go the route of using splinterscourges then you would take 2 squads of them and stick them either on the flanks or off-centre mid-way up the table. You can deep strike turn 2 or move-run turn 1 to get them into position (or move-fire if the opponent is close turn 1). You can use a couple Venoms to cover this advance if you like (and it might be prudent to do so). The strategy here is to get away from the Venom spam tactic of holding back and peppering at range replacing for a strategy of getting into your opponents face in the midfield and controlling this region of the board. It's a more aggressive strategy than sitting back with Venoms and it might lend itself better to an assault oriented list.

Taking splinterscourges also doesn't preclude taking heat land or haywire scourges either. With 6 FA slots available to you with the new FO you can take 2 splinter squads (I'd say 8 strong is a good number) and then a smaller anti-tank squad of your choice. There's an extra advantage to taking this 3 scourge squad settup, if you deep strike them all (put your HQs in a couple of the squads with WWP's for good measure) your opponent is going to expect you to drop them behind his units turn 2. That's a lot of firepower you're deep striking here. If your opponent plays it cautiously then he might turtle or hold back on a more aggressive deployment (and turn 1 movement). He's just surrendered midfield to you right there, which is where you were going to stick your scourges anyway. If he gambles or is one of those players that will just throw stuff at you anyway then you actually could drop them behind his under defended back lines and mess him up. With those guys behind his lines and your Venoms/Ravagers in your own table third he's now pinned in no man's land. Yeah it might not work every time and it might not work in every game but relying on scourges for your primary anti-infantry output gives you options that Venom spam can't give you. One 8 man splinterscourge squad is doing the damage of 3 Venoms. You're just going to deep strike 6 Venoms into your opponents deployment zone turn 2. It's not going to happen. But you can deepstrike 2 scourge squads and you actually might if there's an advantage there. Venom spam is a narrow strategy to follow. It works well (I've seen it work well on batreps) but I've seem it fall down when armies were built to stop them (massed lascannons and assault canons blasting hem to pieces). Throw my above suggested 3 scourge squadron at the same point ont he table and you will melt 2 average infantry squads and one piece of armour right away. Not 100% of the time but the odds are well with you that it'll happen. That's three pieces of your opponents army you can take off the board in one go. If you support this with other elements you can totally alpha strike them off the table. your back up plan is just as good because you deploy them across the middle of the board (maybe stick a squad of mandrakes in there too) and you have taken control of the most important third of the table.

The key to splinterscourge is exposing them to as little as possible, ideally only the squad you're going to shoot at. Its easier to do that for a single unit than it would be for the 3 Venoms these guys are replacing. Sure the venoms give you three targets the other guy has to target but they're DE, they're armour is made of paper mache stuck to a hull made of twigs. From what I've seen of batreps Venoms die every turn unless you silence everything that can hurt them. And those that don't die end up on perma-jink. That weakness can easily write off any weakness the scourge might have with their shorter 18" range. But if you can stick those scourge at 18" from a gunline, in cover they're gonna be a massive headache for your opponent. You're just not gonna get all those Venoms that and not die or have to jink.

My conclusion is that you either rely on splinter canons only from your Venoms (and optional splinterborn icanons nside them) and you engage at range with a predictable (at least in terms of anti-infantry fire) strategy or you roll with the mathematically superior splinterscourge and you shake up the strategy you use by going for a close range firepower game. The Venom strategy is tried and true but has weaknesses if your opponent builds to counter them (can you survive a heavy drop pod alpha using this strategy?). The scourge strategy I would suggest gives you more options for your turns 1-2 game and can give you several different options right up until you deploy them. You're not committing anything until turn 2 and when you do you can impact enough to shape the game to your advantage.

Rereading some of the comments it looks like there's a pattern forming for the DA. At closer ranges your poison firepower is just significantly more potent than it is at range. There's only one way to lay down this firepower at range but there are multiple ways of laying it down if you get close. I feel (looking over the codex with relatively fresh eyes here) that the DA are at their best when pushed up into the face of your foe but most of the batreps I've seen where they're performing well have them engage more cautiously at range with Venoms. But this doesn't mean that sorter range doesn't work, it's just the strategies used by the players I've seen, presumably based on the established thinking for the army. But if the maths say it's better to engage up close then why not develop effective strategies to make that work? Hope some of you will try out these theories because right now I have no army to test this with.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 16:16

Close range firepower however has the caveat of needing to be protected by some assault units in case of space marines coming in with their krak grenades (You don't want this happening). Or HayFire Warriors (this is even worse), whereas long range firepower, if you spam lots of venoms (7 on avg) you can have them all fight on 18" (bring on the blasters and the splinter rifles), 24" (splinter rifles now play their role) or 36" (stays out of range of most return fire) depending on the situation at hand (this is the only strategic consideration do you have, aside from finding some pieces of cover to obscure the Venom with)

For example consider this venom spam list (1500) backed up by Ravs.

Archon w/ Blaster, Shadow Field, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
5 Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
5 Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
5 Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
5 Warrior, Blaster, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
5 Warrior, Blaster, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
5 Warrior, Blaster, Venom 2x Splinter Cannon
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance

That's a lot of Splinter Cannon fire right there. The Ravs are there to silence anything that can cause jinks on the Venoms. Any AT based infantry should be mowed down by Venoms. It's a pretty beginner strategy. At most only 2-3 Venoms are jinking depending on how much AT there is.

Drop Pod lists equally bust up Raiders, so moot point.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 16:18

It's certainly an intriguing proposal, and not one I'd considered doing to be honest - because you have to take two troops units my go-to in this section of the force org is two warrior gunboats - 10 guys with splinter rifles in a raider. Not quite as efficient as venoms, but off the board in the early turns to give me maximum firepower when they do arrive (hopefully within short range).

I would love to see an army like this done properly on the board though, all those scourges flitting around giving their opponents nightmares - I may even be forced to sketch out a list to see how it would look.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Thu Jan 08 2015, 16:41

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Here's my list that involves Gunboats (though with added SC, because I already have them built on one squad, and I would have had 30 spare points, that could not be used much). It has scourges but in an AT role.

2 Raider squads firing at 12" does provide 44 TL shots + 6 Dissie shots (either snap or full BS), 3 Venom squads at 12" provides 48 shots, no re-rolls. So Raider squads at this point deal high amounts of damage for a Troops choice, and with 2 of them focused on a single squad (either the dissies can contribute on the same squad, or even throw both on another squad) can decimate units, be it Marine, Termie or Guard.

However Raider squads, utilized at their full effectiveness, has to be protected from a variety of threats, be it that Devastator or Predator with a very hungry Lascannon, or that plucky group of 3-5 basic Bolter marines, with their krak grenades, ready to make the foolhardy charge and then proceed to obliterate the Raider. Small-sized counter assault units can move in to finish the latter, and if positioned well in advance, butcher Dev squads or similar Infantry based AT (like Astra Militarum HWTs)

Succubus w/ Glaive, Armor of Misery
4x Incubi, Klaivex, Venom 2x SC
5x Blasterborn, Venom 2x SC
10x Warriors, SC, Raider w/ NS, SR
10x Warriors, SC, Raider w/ NS, SR
6x Reavers, 2x CC, 2x HL
6x Reavers, 2x CC, 2x HL
5x Scourges, 4x HWB
Ravager- 3x DL, NS
Ravager- 3x DL, NS
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Fri Jan 09 2015, 10:40

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
It's certainly an intriguing proposal, and not one I'd considered doing to be honest - because you have to take two troops units my go-to in this section of the force org is two warrior gunboats - 10 guys with splinter rifles in a raider. Not quite as efficient as venoms, but off the board in the early turns to give me maximum firepower when they do arrive (hopefully within short range).

I would love to see an army like this done properly on the board though, all those scourges flitting around giving their opponents nightmares - I may even be forced to sketch out a list to see how it would look.

Seems we might be on the same page here. Gunboats are actually better than Venoms if you can get them within 12" (more than 30% more efficient in fact). Deepstriking is the answer for them I think. That or turbo boosting turn 1. But deep striking keeps your gunboat from jinking on turn 2 so it can at least fire one volley from it's dissie gun. Keeping it alive after that is then a concern (easier to keep long range Venoms alive whilst they snipe at infantry squads). I think deep striking gunboats would work very well with splinterscourges as you're putting a lot of firepower into that 12-18" zone. Drop some anti-tank scourges behind the lines to cause panic, move an assault unit to block a potential charge on your gunboats and support the whole ting with Ravagers from the back. I think a Voidraven would work well as support for all this because it could drop that massive bomb right on top of the enemy gunline or missile blast any assault troops close enough to charge after the gunboats arrive. If you can do this right you can just put a massive hole right in the middle of the other guys deployment zone or wipe out an entire flank in one go.

I think this could be a better strategy to use against a drop pod army, which from what I've seen is something that can be a real problem for DE armies if they like to sit back and whittle away. You could leave all those drop pods sitting in your deployment zone with little to do whilst you take care of the other stuff.

@The_Burning_Eye I urge you to try it out with some splinterscourge in there. Would love to know how it works in reality.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Fri Jan 09 2015, 11:01

I've sketched out a draft list - would be good to get comments.

Scourge list draft

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Fri Jan 09 2015, 11:21

Whether in agreement, or still a beleiver in the Venom span list, I think this is a great post, and real food for thought. Most interestingly of all, it makes you think outside of the normal unit layouts.
I hadnt even considered the idea of scourges without HWB/HL, or taking them in larger units.
It would certainly allow for venoms and raiders to be carrying different cargoes.
The closer proximity of your army does lend itself to more assault based armies, but you will have more transports to get them there with.
really worthwile thinking about.
thanks

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Sun Jan 11 2015, 17:56

This is entirely anecdotal, but I'm finding myself moving away from Gunboat Warriors.

I don't know what it is exactly, but it just feels like the squad lacks 'bite'. As in, all their shots never seems to amount to many actual casualties. Not only that, but unlike Venom squads I have to also put them in considerable danger to get within optimum range. And, as soon as they're disembarked, they're basically dead.

They just end up feeling like a waste of a Raider (I could have put Grotesques in there...).

Anyone else have experiences like this?
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Mon Jan 12 2015, 00:09

@The Shredder wrote:
This is entirely anecdotal, but I'm finding myself moving away from Gunboat Warriors.

I don't know what it is exactly, but it just feels like the squad lacks 'bite'. As in, all their shots never seems to amount to many actual casualties. Not only that, but unlike Venom squads I have to also put them in considerable danger to get within optimum range. And, as soon as they're disembarked, they're basically dead.

They just end up feeling like a waste of a Raider (I could have put Grotesques in there...).

Anyone else have experiences like this?

Quite the opposite, I usually lose venoms much quicker than gunboats, and when the gunboats tend to cause 7-10 wounds on average they have so much more bite than venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Sun Jan 25 2015, 23:53

You forgot the best choice: Beastmasters

10pts per guy with assault 2 @18" and move as beasts. Makes 15pts per wound.
You can take like 12 in a unit for 120points with 24 shots. The question is, are they more survivable then venoms?
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Mon Jan 26 2015, 02:21

@Xalopec wrote:
You forgot the best choice: Beastmasters

10pts per guy with assault 2 @18" and move as beasts. Makes 15pts per wound.
You can take like 12 in a unit for 120points with 24 shots. The question is, are they more survivable then venoms?

In addition as each Beastmaster is considered a character- imagine the amount of potential precision shots.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Mon Jan 26 2015, 02:45

They are not characters any more, unfortunately.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Mon Jan 26 2015, 08:25

@PainReaver wrote:
In addition as each Beastmaster is considered a character- imagine the amount of potential precision shots.

Also characters in 7th don't get precision shots anymore. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Mon Jan 26 2015, 09:21

Other than that, spot on! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Poison Shooty Squad Analysis   Mon Jan 26 2015, 10:04

So what's the point of a Sybarite then, other than extra Ld and Haywire? :p
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