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 My problems with our codex (warning rant)

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 22:41

Yeah, quite a fair amount. Check out the photos of the LVO over at frontlinegaming.org
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 23:09

@Lord Mal wrote:
I'm terrible at Math Shredder, so correct me since I'm probably wrong, but that's for one Hexifle right?  So isn't x6 or, in my list, 7 to 9 usually with a mostly coven list (I tend to take a couple on Haemy's I'm already taking) going to be like 83.33% to take off that one wound, and since it's a 36 range for each sniper, you can usually go for all 6 rounds.  I mean, if that's 5 or 6 dead flamers (Or whatever) paying for it's points back, and then some since you're reaching out to touch them before they can be used against you?

But, that's still ~500pts of your army which is doing nothing for those 6 turns but killing 6 flamers. tongue

It seems that, for those points, you could have some much more efficient shooting.

@Lord Mal wrote:
You're counting the wracks and the Haemy's as part of the cost, which is fine, but all of my character's hex rifles are on characters I'd already be taking for other parts of the list (getting detachments or WWP's).  The wracks are, yes for the Snipers, but also, huddled around a cronos in the middle of the field, as pretty tanky little units that have to be wiped out one at a time (x5 targets and the Cronos) while my other stuff gets deep struck/WWP'ed in.

Personally, I still don't think they're remotely worth it. Especially as Wracks also require an Acothyst-tax just to gain access to the Hexrifle.

However, by all means try this strategy and see how it works out, or just do it for fun. I myself have taken Hexrifles on occasions for a bit of fun.
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Feb 28 2015, 00:05

Hehe, fair enough Very Happy

I think what's happening here is that I'm a former Dwarf Fantasy Player, and not surprisingly, Dark Eldar enthusiasts tend to see offense everywhere (Obviously, since you can't get punched in the face for long and live with this army). I tend to see value from surviving ( I realize this isn't exactly the army for that lol).

But where you see 500 pts sitting there doing nothing, I see 500 pts not getting 1 shotted in droves like venoms tend to do, that is slowly collecting points and is affecting my opponent psychologically.

However, I'm going off theory, and you're going off experience, so you're probably right. Still, I bet my opponents will be nervous for their characters for those 6 rounds lol.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Feb 28 2015, 01:20

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Results from LVO, out of 256 participants, the biggest major this year so far 2015.

Was there terrain on the table? LOS blocks?

http://i.imgur.com/LSG5Sub.jpg

Definitely wasn't the terrain or the mission packages..

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Feb 28 2015, 08:23

@HERO wrote:
Results from LVO, out of 256 participants, the biggest major this year so far 2015.

-Highest placing DE in Rank 29/256 scored 45 battle points, running Dark Eldar with Eldar allies.
-2 people ran double CAD Dark Eldar, placing 101 and 165.
-6 people rank Dark Eldar/Eldar total
-2 people ran pure DE, came in 193 and 218 out of 256.
-There were only 2 Eldar players who took DE as secondary, one placing Rank 15, and he did so by just taking the WWP (lo and behold) + throwaway.
-There were 30 Eldar players at the event.
-There were only 10 Dark Eldar players at the event.  Only 2 placed in the top 100 (29 and 81).

Sad to see these results, but im happy to hear about 29.

And of course 15 used a wwp because eldar support is why we exist... im not bitter im just unsweetened!

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Feb 28 2015, 08:59

On a positive note the list that won 11th Company and LVO was very unconventional and the player commanding it is a phenomenal Dark Eldar Player (Sean Nayden lictorShame). He stopped playing Dark Eldar when the 7th edition codex came out because it no longer had Vect and wasn't assaulty enough for his liking. His list is refreshingly unorthodox in a world of serpent spam and centstar.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 06:46

I think our codex is good. But it seems rushed. A space marine worth only 3 more points than a wych.... is a good example. I
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 08:47

I like new codex too.
But there`s some things that looks... strange.

Djinn blade? - yeah, it was strange before, but now its kinda worst thing in Artifacts of Cruelty
Wyches? - i predictet that hayware would be lost, but what they recieved in exchange - nothing
HQ? - even less options, than before (not to mention some of this options are realy sad choises)
Beasts? - biggest nerf of all units. Damn, i have so many of them and they literaly DO NOTHING now
Hellions? - same as above (25 models!!!)
Special characters? - i don`t wanna talk about that Sad

I only hope that some day wwe will recieve Asdrubael (and maybe Malys) as a supplement or dataslate. And maybe cool wych suppl. I mean, seriosly, CSM and SM got like 3-4 suppl each. And dataslates. And more. I don`t believe that Dark Eldar so unpopular, that nobody think about some new releases.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 11:29

We got covens straight off the bat! There are a couple who still have no supplement at all!

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 14:26

@Massaen wrote:
We got covens straight off the bat! There are a couple who still have no supplement at all!

Like who? I mean no count for Dark angels, Space wolves etc. They all are SM supplements after all (IMO)

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 14:59

@Devilogical wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
We got covens straight off the bat! There are a couple who still have no supplement at all!

Like who? I mean no count for Dark angels, Space wolves etc. They all are SM supplements after all (IMO)
Just off the top of my head, Chaos Daemons, Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Harlequins, Inquisition, Adepta Sororitas.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 15:49

Agreed about sisters, necrons and daemons.
But all others (including Harlies) are supplements. More or less.


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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 16:08

Well, they may seem that way to you, but GW hasn't shown any signs of agreeing with you, and they're the ones making the supplements....
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sun Mar 01 2015, 18:39

Good thing about wyches is that they look very similar to Harlequins once painted.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 08:52

Not to put a block in the conversation, but all the negativity going on here really discourages new players. And I thought I had saved best for last, but turns out I was never meant to start DE in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 08:59

@trade_prince wrote:
Not to put a block in the conversation, but all the negativity going on here really discourages new players.

You mean honesty?

Sorry, but 40k is a serious investment and new players should know what they're getting into.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:04

Fair enough, but when one gets hyped about starting an army one wanted to try since 5ed, but then sees a wall of negativity coming ones way, you think that person will be happy going into this??
I actually wanted to place my 1250pts order today, but now I read too deeply into this thread and I am having second guesses.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:08

@trade_prince wrote:
Not to put a block in the conversation, but all the negativity going on here really discourages new players. And I thought I had saved best for last, but turns out I was never meant to start DE in the first place.

Like all communities we need a place to let out our frustrations, and that's what this thread is for. Some concerns in this thread are genuine others are exaggerated. But by having a quick moan/rant about something on the forums, most members can then feel better and get back to playing the army they love.

Dark Eldar players may come across as cold and calculating playing an army that historically has always been challenging to play, but they sometimes need to let out their frustrations. A classic one is serpent spam hard countering most of our codex, most conventional Dark Eldar lists will lose if they go second against serpent spam, and will struggle to win if they go first. The sad part is there is almost nothing you can do in this match up to get around it. That feeling of total powerlessness and futility can get frustrating at times.

Finally as @Shredder said, we do not let up any illusions about what you are getting into playing this army. It is very rewarding to play, but it can be an uphill struggle at times. So if you are up for the challenge I wouldn't let this thread discourage you. It's a wonderful book with lots of interesting units to master. Smile


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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:13

I guess you have a point. Can't eat a cake and have it too. If I want to play the single most challenging army in 40k, I guess I need to put up with nay-sayers every now'n'again.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:21

The Dark City is a surprisingly optimistic, upbeat and positive place. You will find people here that will help you try and make the unplayable playable. If you say you want to run some crazy list that goes against all conventional wisdom and you have certain restrictions you want to adhere to, people will help you build within those restrictions. They won't laugh you off the boards and drown you in cookie cutter responses. Like run venoms and ravagers, thanks bye. At least that's always been my experience here. It's a wonderfully open minded community. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 10:50

@Mushkilla wrote:
The Dark City is a surprisingly optimistic, upbeat and positive place. You will find people here that will help you try and make the unplayable playable. If you say you want to run some crazy list that goes against all conventional wisdom and you have certain restrictions you want to adhere to, people will help you build within those restrictions. They won't laugh you off the boards and drown you in cookie cutter responses. Like run venoms and ravagers, thanks bye. At least that's always been my experience here. It's a wonderfully open minded community. Smile

I'd second that - I signed up to the bolter and chainsword when I wanted constructive criticism on my blood angels list and got nothing significantly beyond 'that's a bad list' as a response. Conversely, when I posted my first attempts at lists for DE here, I got lots of useful comments. When you're posting up a list, it really helps to identify any restrictions you want to place on it and how you want to play as people can then make more constructive comments.

Each thread must also be read in context - this thread was identified at the outset in its title as a rant and is therefore likely born out of frustration about certain things. Browsing other threads in the tactics section however you will see much more positive approaches to DE (and that's not a criticism of the OP or anyone who's criticised the DE codex - I try to be a positive person myself but even I have had moments where i rage in frustration about parts of it. I own 15 Hellions I really want to use after all!). These threads are an important part of being realistic about what the DE can and can't do, but don't be put off by them, use them to help inform - DE are a very rewarding army to play when you're playing them well, but from the start you need to accept that sometimes you will lose badly, and that's part of how the mechanics of the game and the DE rules work (by which I mean the poison mechanic, which evens the playing field and gives us a massive advantage over armies like wraithguard and tyranids, but hurts us against guardsmen etc)

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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 11:18

There's one thing to express concern or complain about nerfs, as everyone is prone to, even space marine players ("storm bolters on terminators were way better in 3e!" and so on)

There's another to go down to the Batrep subforum and look at people post victories with unconventional list builds against more standard tournament fare. If you want inspiration then take a look.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 11:19

Well, no turning back now (except for asking for a refund of cause). I hope it was worth it Very Happy
Selling off my last 'test-army' got me a good amount of cash now. Enough to get the actual 1500pts up and running (not counting the books).
After a while it did occur to me that I would need to play one of the Eldar factions to be happy. Harlies are a bit too colourful for me and CWE are not challenging or interesting in the least, at least to me. Besides, in an attempt to fix the horrible internal balance of the book, their update might mess with my models a bit too much. This basically leaves me with DE. Even with all their problems I see them as one of the most interesting factions (them and Harlies).
Here's to crushing noobs and dominating pros Wink

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 11:21

@HokutoAndy wrote:
There's one thing to express concern or complain about nerfs, as everyone is prone to, even space marine players ("storm bolters on terminators were way better in 3e!" and so on)

Don't get me started on terminators! Wink Wink

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Mon Mar 02 2015, 12:04

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Don't get me started on terminators! Wink Wink

Haha, I agree - I once lost 4 termies to a single 10 man cultist unit's PISTOLS - he was gonna assault them into my termies - turns out, he didn't even need to.

My 2+ rolls are absolutely abysmal with termies - which is why it's so surprising that I've yet to fail a single shadowfield save. I'm starting to not want to play with my Archon because I don't want to see him to have his first failed save ever xD.
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