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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:39

@Erebus wrote:
Initiative represents one's speed in responsiveness, so it makes sense that climbing over cover would inhibit one's ability to react to those behind it. Assault grenades, in this context, are used to cause a distraction so the enemy isn't at such an obvious advantage. In this sense, reducing Initiative is perfectly logical, but I think it should be a negative modifier instead of a strict reduction to 1.

But, by the same logic, the extra attack is supposed to represent the momentum of the charge - which will be drastically reduced if charging through difficult terrain.

Furthermore, even if you can justify it with fluff, it's still bad game design.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:43

..and you could probably achieve the same effect from grenades with supression fire.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:49

The other aspect, of course, is why so many DE would go out without grenades when striking first is so important.

I mean, if IG can give every single heavy weapons team grenades, surely our Incubi should be able to pool together and buy a few? tongue
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:53

@The Shredder wrote:
Furthermore, even if you can justify it with fluff, it's still bad game design.
This is why I think it should be a negative modifier (say -2) - that way, you're still penalised for charging through cover, but it doesn't completely gimp high initiative units like ours.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:54

Also, with Initiative being a measure of their responsiveness - you'd expect Incubi, who have honed their skills to become the perfect killer and warrior their entire lives, to be able to dance around terrain and cover and not be hampered by the fact that they are jumping over some rocks to get to their opponents. So while Incubi probably wouldn't use grenades (as its not part of their arsenal, with their lives being devoted to the Klaive) Would it hurt so much to give them some rule that allows them to ignore the terrain penalty?

as a side note - so many pics we see of kabalites/incubi in the art, they are jumping all over the place attacking guardsmen and marines from above etc. but that's besides the fact I guess. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:57

@Erebus wrote:
This is why I think it should be a negative modifier (say -2) - that way, you're still penalised for charging through cover, but it doesn't completely gimp high initiative units like ours.

It's the same problem though - you have what should be a universal mechanic turned into a specific mechanic because a lot of units don't care about the effect at all.

There's no reason why we have to suffer heavily for charging through cover, whilst Necrons or PF units just ignore it entirely. It's just bad design.

Though, what's even worse is that it's currently just another 'screw you for not playing marines' rule.

It's good to show contempt for your players.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 18:44

@The Shredder wrote:
I mean, if IG can give every single heavy weapons team grenades, surely our Incubi should be able to pool together and buy a few? tongue
@Caldria wrote:
Also, with Initiative being a measure of their responsiveness - you'd expect Incubi, who have honed their skills to become the perfect killer and warrior their entire lives, to be able to dance around terrain and cover and not be hampered by the fact that they are jumping over some rocks to get to their opponents. So while Incubi probably wouldn't use grenades (as its not part of their arsenal, with their lives being devoted to the Klaive) Would it hurt so much to give them some rule that allows them to ignore the terrain penalty?

as a side note - so many pics we see of kabalites/incubi in the art, they are jumping all over the place attacking guardsmen and marines from above etc. but that's besides the fact I guess. Razz

Personally, I would love to see those devices the Incubi make out of Spirit Stone - not sure what they are called now - having a similar effect as grenades on the charge.

Or the Shredder being given the Pinning special rule, so it would finally serve a real purpose.

Or something that makes squads assaulting out of our transports ignore the terrain. That would even make sense as a general rule, since they aren't technically moving through terrain on the charge.

Just some ideas...
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Jan 10 2015, 02:59

Back when Wych weapons were a unit wide upgrade they probably had some value.  I thought the last incarnation of Shardnets was a novelty, especially the Archon with triple Shardnets combo.

I agree they are a huge missed opportunity, but in terms of effectiveness, they were barely there anyway.  They could be serviceable again if they had a way to avoid explosions (like cargo nets that let them take an I test to avoid damage on the explosion table when embarked) and actually tied up units effectively (like with the second generation weapons).

I'm just saying that with no-deepstrike Heat Lances and Reavers having them and a truck load of rending attacks I still don't see what would motivate players to take Wyches, besides the models.  

And I have over two dozen, so it isn't like I don't want them to be good.  It's just that there are enough other things I like in the book that I can stand not having them.

It is doubtful Tau will have HWG next time around.  GW probably realized having mass Haywire in a world of Super Heavies is a bad idea.

I think one of the larger issues here is what people view DE as.  A lot of people obviously view them as an army looking to get into combat and to use shooting to soften up the opponent.  I view them as raiders that want to get in and out intact with loot.  Therefore, other than Wych cult not being great at combat, I don't have a problem with the way they play.  I can understand disappointment if you want an army of Incubi and Wyches and Hellions but I would consider that less fluffy (as a rule, not an exception) than a force of Ravagers and Warriors in Raiders and Blasterborn in Venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Jan 10 2015, 10:33

@a1elbow wrote:

I think one of the larger issues here is what people view DE as.  A lot of people obviously view them as an army looking to get into combat and to use shooting to soften up the opponent.  I view them as raiders that want to get in and out intact with loot.  Therefore, other than Wych cult not being great at combat, I don't have a problem with the way they play.  I can understand disappointment if you want an army of Incubi and Wyches and Hellions but I would consider that less fluffy (as a rule, not an exception) than a force of Ravagers and Warriors in Raiders and Blasterborn in Venoms.

Well first of all, i think the combination of Incubi, wyches and hellions is about as likely as Ravagers, warriors and Trueborn, as wyches and hellions belong to the cult and Incubi are bodyguards that would work for all parts of Commorragh.
The reason why I think CC is important as a fluffy aspect of the army is that try snatching someone from afar.
Is no use if you ambush some place, shoot everything up and then leave. You need to grab something, and people need to be grabed in CC.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Jan 10 2015, 10:38

@a1elbow wrote:
I think one of the larger issues here is what people view DE as.  A lot of people obviously view them as an army looking to get into combat and to use shooting to soften up the opponent.  I view them as raiders that want to get in and out intact with loot.  Therefore, other than Wych cult not being great at combat, I don't have a problem with the way they play.  I can understand disappointment if you want an army of Incubi and Wyches and Hellions but I would consider that less fluffy (as a rule, not an exception) than a force of Ravagers and Warriors in Raiders and Blasterborn in Venoms.

Thing is though, why bother making dedicated melee units if they're not going to be as good as ranged units?

It's not about expectations it's about basic game design - the whole point of having a point system is so that units can be balanced against one another. But, if you're just going to ignore that and arbitrarily make melee units worse for their cost than ranged ones, why bother?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Sat Jan 10 2015, 11:25

Quote :
Is no use if you ambush some place, shoot everything up and then leave. You need to grab something, and people need to be grabed in CC.

Actually no.
For most raids splinter weapons are loaded with a very potend and very painful tranquilizer.
They shoot up the place and then collect their paralyzed victims. They are not sending in the wyches to wrestle them down and bind them.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 01:03

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
Sorry for a shameless plug for the podcast, but I think it's worth a listen to hear the perspectives of BAO and LVO tournament organizer and one of the top ranked Dark Eldar players in the US in our latest episode on this topic. I think you can point at what any codex has all day long, but if you stop and look at the strengths of our army and codex I don't think you can deny that there are a ton of players and armies that DO NOT want to draw us in a tournament.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11257-splintermind-episode-7-part-1-tournament-raids-and-you

Jfyi guys, I'm going to make a blog post response to this.

It has a lot to do with the codex that we have, their progress in the last year, their results in the tournament scene, and some other subjects touched upon here.

I'll let you know when I finish.

PS - This was one of your better podcasts for me since I'm big into competitive play. Kudos.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 05:17

@Evil Space Elves
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/02/de-response-to-spoiler-army.html

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 16:11

Pinning.

We need weapons or abilities that can cause pinning to make our combat units effective.


Wyches die easily to overwatch, which in fairness is kinda realistic.

Random charge ranges mean that CC units can be left in the open if we fail a charge, but randomness is what makes this game work so I can live with that too.

CC units strike at I1 without grenades. In general this is a good rule, but we're hurt by this more than some other races because we rely on a (relatively) small number of high-speed/low-AP attacks. A slow Incubus is likely a dead Incubus.


I'm actually of the opinion that plasma grenades for Incubi would be a tad overpowered. But that shouldn't be their only option for avoiding the initiative penalty. I love the idea of having to work a little synergy into an army's strategies and tactics, and the ability (or at least, the opportunity) to pin your CC targets with a supporting unit makes soooooo much sense. Force the enemy to go to ground, and avoid overwatch and the initiative penalty for assaulting through cover. Lovely.


For the record, I'm enjoying the new codex. Mostly. I love the new Scourges, Reavers and Razorwing. Kabalite gunboats are (slightly) cheaper. Talos/Cronos now come in units of up to 3. Ravagers losing AA was a shame, and a min size of 5 for Trueborn is a pain too. The biggest disappointment for me was the complete removal of pinning from our army. If I could change anything about our dex it'd be to make Shredders and PGLs have the pinning special rule.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 16:53

Honestly, in addition to needing more flavour, I think our codex needs more bite.

We're supposed to be a glass-cannon army, and yet we seem to be last in line when it came to handing out good weapons. Or even weapons, for that matter, as we have naff-all variety. What would you like for this unit? A poisoned weapon, a dark lance, another poisoned weapon or a short-range dark lance? Outstanding.

Of course, this might be more bearable if those weapons weren't quite as crap. The Dark Lance costs as much as a Lascsnnon, yet is worse 90% of the time (and the Lascannon is hardly a great vehicle-killer to begin with). Though, apparently it's so overpowered that it's main platform (the Ravager) needed both a massive nerf and a price-hike. And let's not forget that the Blaster costs 50% more than a meltagun, despite being absolutely horrible against armour.

Also, grenades would not make Incubi overpowered. Not even remotely. If anything, they might come close to making them worth their cost. I mean, come on, this is the age of IKs, Wraithknights and Wave Serpents. Do you really think some S4 AP2 melee attacks, on a unit with all the resilience of a Sister of Battle, is going to make anyone cry?

@HERO wrote:
@Evil Space Elves
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/02/de-response-to-spoiler-army.html

Interesting read. I also liked your review of our new book.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 17:01

So I wrote this and posted right after Shredder postd his about weapons, but I figure I'd leave it as is:

From the outside looking in, since I just got to the party of 40K from Fantasy, I'd agree that there are lots of holes in the book.  Most books from GW in both Fantasy and 40k tend to have a lot of holes, but what makes books "successful" in the player bases eyes are usually certain really good options.  While we have a couple of really good choices for units when you take a lot of them (Obviously Meta or Opponent dependent), the book really lacks options gear wise for each unit and each character choice.  Because all of the equipment ranges from unusable, to an okay filler, most of the better stuff is still just good or reliant on dice, but nothing is a must use, in a world where most Army Books have must use equipment for both units and Characters.

Examples:  It's not just one character type that suffers from this, or one unit.  Haywire grenades (as has been pointed out in great detail), are scarce now, PGL were made suboptimal when they really shouldn't have been(they would have just been useful), all of the Wych's melee options are just horrible, as are the Archon's(Or if not horrible, mediocre for a high price), and the Haemy has the "best" options even though he's not really supposed to be a melee character (Scissorhands and Flesh Gauntlet).  The dice dependent items, end up being the strongest, which again, shouldn't be the case when you're paying a premium in points for items.  

Since the main difference they made from unit to unit was the equipment selection, but then they botched that section rules wise, it really throws off the whole thing's balance.  The book really tries to give the illusion of choice without giving you any reliable options, and those books are usually the ones across Fantasy and 40k that are labeled "Fluffy" or "Non-competitive".

I'm not saying the book doesn't have warts if the equipment was all brought back into good to great range, but it would make a vast difference in terms of options, and some people enjoying the book more.

Also, this is from a new players perspective that enjoys the book, although I have to admit that I've always been Coven, so that's not really surprising given the supplement(I am in love with the Supplement though).
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 17:10

@The Shredder wrote:
Also, grenades would not make Incubi overpowered. Not even remotely. If anything, they might come close to making them worth their cost. I mean, come on, this is the age of IKs, Wraithknights and Wave Serpents. Do you really think some S4 AP2 melee attacks, on a unit with all the resilience of a Sister of Battle, is going to make anyone cry?

Yeah I think they would be.

Actually, maybe I need to elaborate. They'd be overpowered at killing MEQ (and guys with 2+ but no invul) because they'd have nowhere to hide, but not overpowered against ALL units. Perhaps I should have said that 'they'd be too good at doing what they're designed to do.' Incubi aren't supposed to be going after vehicles and high T targets anyway, so you're right, they wouldn't be overpowered vs Serpents and Knights. I think with plasma grenades they'd be an auto-include because they'd just have to point at a T4 3+/2+ unit and mulch the lot of them, cover or no.

So I stand by my claim that they'd be nicely balanced if they were supported by units that are able to pin their targets.


I completely agree with your point about a lack of variety in weapons though. It really is all poison and darklight. Phantasm would be a cool alternative if it weren't for the fact that it can't hurt guys with ATSKNF. And I'd certainly take a Shredder or two if they had pinning Wink
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 17:45

@The Shredder wrote:
Honestly, in addition to needing more flavour, I think our codex needs more bite.

We're supposed to be a glass-cannon army, and yet we seem to be last in line when it came to handing out good weapons. Or even weapons, for that matter, as we have naff-all variety. What would you like for this unit? A poisoned weapon, a dark lance, another poisoned weapon or a short-range dark lance? Outstanding.

Of course, this might be more bearable if those weapons weren't quite as crap. The Dark Lance costs as much as a Lascsnnon, yet is worse 90% of the time (and the Lascannon is hardly a great vehicle-killer to begin with). Though, apparently it's so overpowered that it's main platform (the Ravager) needed both a massive nerf and a price-hike. And let's not forget that the Blaster costs 50% more than a meltagun, despite being absolutely horrible against armour.

Also, grenades would not make Incubi overpowered. Not even remotely. If anything, they might come close to making them worth their cost. I mean, come on, this is the age of IKs, Wraithknights and Wave Serpents. Do you really think some S4 AP2 melee attacks, on a unit with all the resilience of a Sister of Battle, is going to make anyone cry?

@HERO wrote:
@Evil Space Elves
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/02/de-response-to-spoiler-army.html

Interesting read. I also liked your review of our new book.

Thanks, I wrote that thing when it first came out. Looks like time and experience proved the 500 or so naysayers wrong. When that article was released on Bell of Lost Souls, it freaking blew up, with people saying the most ridiculous and delusional optimistic things. Maybe it's just me, but I don't settle for sloppy seconds.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 17:48

@WrackYourBrains wrote:

Yeah I think they would be.

Actually, maybe I need to elaborate. They'd be overpowered at killing MEQ (and guys with 2+ but no invul) because they'd have nowhere to hide, but not overpowered against ALL units. Perhaps I should have said that 'they'd be too good at doing what they're designed to do.'

But that's the thing - killing MEQ in melee is not an especially useful role. Especially not when we can do it with disintegrators from 36" away.

Giving them grenades would just make them functional at that very specific role.

Furthermore, MEQ still have a prefect place to hide - vehicles. Not to mention that the Incubi need to reach them - and so will be riding paper-thin transports. Sorry, but MEQ still wouldn't be short of ways to confound Incubi.

@WrackYourBrains wrote:
Incubi aren't supposed to be going after vehicles and high T targets anyway, so you're right, they wouldn't be overpowered vs Serpents and Knights.

This is why Incubi simply can't be OP - there are just too many units that they don't have an answer to.

@WrackYourBrains wrote:
I think with plasma grenades they'd be an auto-include because they'd just have to point at a T4 3+/2+ unit and mulch the lot of them, cover or no.

They wouldn't even be close to an auto-include. Their role is far too narrow, and not even an rare or particularly useful one. MEQs already die to massed poison, to blaster and disintegrator shots and to grotesques (all of which have a far greater range of targets).

As it stands, grenades are about the only thing that would convince me to ever include Incubi at all. As above, killing MEQ is hardly a unique role, and I don't see why I'd ever include a dedicated MEQ-killer that can't function if its target is in a bush. scratch  

@WrackYourBrains wrote:

I completely agree with your point about a lack of variety in weapons though. It really is all poison and darklight. Phantasm would be a cool alternative if it weren't for the fact that it can't hurt guys with ATSKNF. And I'd certainly take a Shredder or two if they had pinning Wink

Agreed about Phantasm stuff. They basically gave us a new type of weapon that's completely worthless.

@Lord Mal wrote:
So I wrote this and posted right after Shredder postd his about weapons, but I figure I'd leave it as is:

From the outside looking in, since I just got to the party of 40K from Fantasy, I'd agree that there are lots of holes in the book.  Most books from GW in both Fantasy and 40k tend to have a lot of holes, but what makes books "successful" in the player bases eyes are usually certain really good options.  While we have a couple of really good choices for units when you take a lot of them (Obviously Meta or Opponent dependent), the book really lacks options gear wise for each unit and each character choice.  Because all of the equipment ranges from unusable, to an okay filler, most of the better stuff is still just good or reliant on dice, but nothing is a must use, in a world where most Army Books have must use equipment for both units and Characters.

Examples:  It's not just one character type that suffers from this, or one unit.  Haywire grenades (as has been pointed out in great detail), are scarce now, PGL were made suboptimal when they really shouldn't have been(they would have just been useful), all of the Wych's melee options are just horrible, as are the Archon's(Or if not horrible, mediocre for a high price), and the Haemy has the "best" options even though he's not really supposed to be a melee character (Scissorhands and Flesh Gauntlet).  The dice dependent items, end up being the strongest, which again, shouldn't be the case when you're paying a premium in points for items.  

Since the main difference they made from unit to unit was the equipment selection, but then they botched that section rules wise, it really throws off the whole thing's balance.  The book really tries to give the illusion of choice without giving you any reliable options, and those books are usually the ones across Fantasy and 40k that are labeled "Fluffy" or "Non-competitive".

I'm not saying the book doesn't have warts if the equipment was all brought back into good to great range, but it would make a vast difference in terms of options, and some people enjoying the book more.

I agree with basically everything you've said.

One thing I'd like to add is that certain weapons just aren't useful when taken on single characters.

To list some examples:

- Hexrifles. A single-shot weapon with negligible AP that fails to wound even a grot 50% of the time is really not very useful. Sniper weapons, much like poison, are only useful in cheap batches. Taking a single, overpriced one just isn't useful. This could have been helped by the addition or Shred or Fleshbane, but nope.

- Haywire grenades. As with the above, Haywire really needs to be used in batches to be effective - a single Haywire grenade just isn't useful. Compare this to what marine characters get - Melta Bombs. These are excellent for characters because they rely on single, powerful hits (rather than multiple, weaker ones). They can also be used against MCs, unlike Haywire. But, not only can our characters not take any melta equivalents, we pay the same price for our haywire grenades. Mad
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 18:36

@The Shredder wrote:
But that's the thing - killing MEQ in melee is not an especially useful role. Especially not when we can do it with disintegrators from 36" away.

Giving them grenades would just make them functional at that very specific role.

Furthermore, MEQ still have a prefect place to hide - vehicles. Not to mention that the Incubi need to reach them - and so will be riding paper-thin transports. Sorry, but MEQ still wouldn't be short of ways to confound Incubi.

Killing MEQ is objectively a useful role. Especially if they can do it while ignoring their cover, unlike Disintegrators.

I think we're just in disagreement here about the definition of 'overpowered'. They certainly wouldn't be able to stomp around the table killing everything in sight by themselves, but they'd be among the best MEQ killers available. Back in 6th my Archon with a PGL and just 4 of these guys used to regularly mulch entire squads.

@The Shredder wrote:
As it stands, grenades are about the only thing that would convince me to ever include Incubi at all. As above, killing MEQ is hardly a unique role, and I don't see why I'd ever include a dedicated MEQ-killer that can't function if its target is in a bush. scratch


Well I'm certainly not including them as they are now, so we at least agree on that point! They do need something to help them get through those bloody bushes without tripping over.


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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 18:59

We're even in agreement on your additions Shredder. By only allowing specific characters to have weapons, and not entire units, they've marginalized the effectiveness of the already expensive choices instead of having us pay for quality by weight of fire.

That being said, for Hexrifles, I've been wanting to ask this as a minor aside since I'm completely new to 40K: For instant death from Arcane Payload, doesn't this basically side step characters with a high armor save if you have a bunch of hex rifles firing at them? I understand that they take a look out sir save too, but if you have 7 to 9 hexrifles from small Wrack units and Haemy's with Hex Rifles, wouldn't all of those shots mean you're going to roll some 6's, and they're going to fail some look out sir rolls? I have an army list in the respective part of the forum nobody has answered yet, so I'm still searching for answers to various things before I can start modeling.

Obviously I'm not saying hexrifles in 1's or 2's would ever be worthwhile, but I have wondered if a weight of them would be. Granted, it's around 70 to 90 pts depending on how many, but if you start taking out Characters, Flamers, Orks with PK's, other high priority members of squads with equipment, they start paying for themselves pretty quickly with that long range. Not to mention that you start to weaken leadership bubbles for armies that run away.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 19:26

@WrackYourBrains wrote:

Killing MEQ is objectively a useful role. Especially if they can do it while ignoring their cover, unlike Disintegrators.

I think we're just in disagreement here about the definition of 'overpowered'. They certainly wouldn't be able to stomp around the table killing everything in sight by themselves, but they'd be among the best MEQ killers available. Back in 6th my Archon with a PGL and just 4 of these guys used to regularly mulch entire squads.

Let me put it another way - considering their fragility and tiny range of targets, I really don't see the problem with Incubi excelling at their only purpose. Neutral

@WrackYourBrains wrote:

Well I'm certainly not including them as they are now, so we at least agree on that point! They do need something to help them get through those bloody bushes without tripping over.

To be honest, I think the 'Charging through cover' rules need changing. There's no reason why we should suffer massively for charging through bushes, whilst Necrons barely notice the difference.

Charging through cover should affect a more universal stat - e.g. make it a disordered charge, so that the squad loses its bonus attack.

@Lord Mal wrote:
We're even in agreement on your additions Shredder.  By only allowing specific characters to have weapons, and not entire units, they've marginalized the effectiveness of the already expensive choices instead of having us pay for quality by weight of fire.

That being said, for Hexrifles, I've been wanting to ask this as a minor aside since I'm completely new to 40K:  For instant death from Arcane Payload, doesn't this basically side step characters with a high armor save if you have a bunch of hex rifles firing at them?  I understand that they take a look out sir save too, but if you have 7 to 9 hexrifles from small Wrack units and Haemy's with Hex Rifles, wouldn't all of those shots mean you're going to roll some 6's, and they're going to fail some look out sir rolls?  I have an army list in the respective part of the forum nobody has answered yet, so I'm still searching for answers to various things before I can start modeling.  

Obviously I'm not saying hexrifles in 1's or 2's would ever be worthwhile, but I have wondered if a weight of them would be.  Granted, it's around 70 to 90 pts depending on how many, but if you start taking out Characters, Flamers, Orks with PK's, other high priority members of squads with equipment, they start paying for themselves pretty quickly with that long range.  Not to mention that you start to weaken leadership bubbles for armies that run away.

I think the problem you'll have is that there's no efficient source of Hexrifles, but you need lots to get it to work.

I mean, let's say you want to snipe the flamer out of a Marine squad. So, we're talking about a model with no LoS who isn't in cover.

Well, the odds of killing him are 1/6 (for that precision shot) x (1/6 + (1/3 x 1/3)) (the odds of a rend, plus the odds of wounding him normally and him failing his armour save) = 5/36.

So, that's about 7 Hexrifles to kill a flamer. And, the cheapest way to get a Hexrifle is via Wrack squads (70pts for a 5-man Wrack squad, including an Acothyst with a Hexrifle). That comes to 490pts for those 6 Hexrifles. That could buy you 4 squads of Warriors with a Blaster in Venoms. If you want to kill a sergeant with a 4+ LoS, it would take ~14 Hexrifles (almost 1000pts!). If you want to kill a character with a 2+ save and a 2+ LoS... forget it.

The problem is, for the points it costs you to field such a high volume of Hexrifles, you could buy enough firepower to just wipe out the squad entirely.


Something of an aside, but one other thing that really bugs me about the Hexrifle is that it doesn't care about the Haemonculus' BS5 - since you only ever get ID on to-hit rolls of 6. Just one of those things that irritates me, I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 19:59

Results from LVO, out of 256 participants, the biggest major this year so far 2015.

-Highest placing DE in Rank 29/256 scored 45 battle points, running Dark Eldar with Eldar allies.
-2 people ran double CAD Dark Eldar, placing 101 and 165.
-6 people rank Dark Eldar/Eldar total
-2 people ran pure DE, came in 193 and 218 out of 256.
-There were only 2 Eldar players who took DE as secondary, one placing Rank 15, and he did so by just taking the WWP (lo and behold) + throwaway.
-There were 30 Eldar players at the event.
-There were only 10 Dark Eldar players at the event.  Only 2 placed in the top 100 (29 and 81).

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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 22:05

I'm terrible at Math Shredder, so correct me since I'm probably wrong, but that's for one Hexifle right?  So isn't x6 or, in my list, 7 to 9 usually with a mostly coven list (I tend to take a couple on Haemy's I'm already taking) going to be like 83.33% to take off that one wound, and since it's a 36 range for each sniper, you can usually go for all 6 rounds.  I mean, if that's 5 or 6 dead flamers (Or whatever) paying for it's points back, and then some since you're reaching out to touch them before they can be used against you?

You're counting the wracks and the Haemy's as part of the cost, which is fine, but all of my character's hex rifles are on characters I'd already be taking for other parts of the list (getting detachments or WWP's).  The wracks are, yes for the Snipers, but also, huddled around a cronos in the middle of the field, as pretty tanky little units that have to be wiped out one at a time (x5 targets and the Cronos) while my other stuff gets deep struck/WWP'ed in.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Feb 27 2015, 22:33

Quote :
Results from LVO, out of 256 participants, the biggest major this year so far 2015.

Was there terrain on the table? LOS blocks?

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