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 My problems with our codex (warning rant)

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 13:00

I think it's perfectly reasonable (and exceedingly fluffy) that the fear based weaponry we have doesn't affect models who don't get afraid. It's clearly not meant to be a theme around which you base a winning army if you're not tailoring your force to the game (which, incidentally, is something that is very much supported by GW, as they suggest you agree games and forces etc before choosing your army list - you have only to read any of the battle reports in White Dwarf (back when they actually wrote them up properly) to see that their idea of how the game is played is to know what you're facing in terms of race before you choose your army).

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 14:01

Sorry for a shameless plug for the podcast, but I think it's worth a listen to hear the perspectives of BAO and LVO tournament organizer and one of the top ranked Dark Eldar players in the US in our latest episode on this topic. I think you can point at what any codex has all day long, but if you stop and look at the strengths of our army and codex I don't think you can deny that there are a ton of players and armies that DO NOT want to draw us in a tournament.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11257-splintermind-episode-7-part-1-tournament-raids-and-you

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 14:09

Never apologise for shameless plugging ESE - though I suspect you don't need to given how well received the podcast is - I'd seen that it's up and am hoping to listen tomorrow night once the daughter and the Mrs have both gone to sleep! I can usually get in a good couple of uninterrupted hours painting then!

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 16:41

To the OP, when the new codex came out I shared these same frustrations (and still do to some extent -- R.I.P Beast Pack and Wyches, which were the backbone of my army in the old codex), however, now that I've three months to play around with the codex/supplement, I'm much more optimistic about our army.  

Yes, GW absolutely missed some opportunities and made some very puzzling design-choices, but overall, I feel like we match up well with most of the armies out there and can play with a variety of different builds thanks to the supplement formations.  

So, long story short is that while I miss the stuff that was nerfed into oblivion, I also like the opportunity to play DE in a whole new way.  So far, I'm having a blast and winning my fair share of (friendly, non-tournament-level) games.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 17:56

i just woke up i see people are agreeing and disagreeing bound to happen we all have different opponents and strategys and will see different parts of our codex thrive and others suffer do i think the codex is bad by 7th standards YES is it unplayable not at all. ive been using it since near week one and i feel it leaves too many holes in our army as of right now i see us as a Eldar supplement and thats why im angry thats why i made those points above.

Our AA is a gamble - who shoots first

Our high initiative is worthless if the enemy knows your assault units (mine do)

Nightfighting is supposed to be our thing with getting nightvision except nightfighting rules are terrible (very much an opinion) and one of my friends i fight often plays tau, and with no way to manipulate nightfighting our detachment and our formation do there job for ONE turn.

Speed is nice except after moving fast we cant shoot, we are not a fast army we are a mobile army, unless you deepstrike in, we get no way to manipulate this tactic unless you role a 2 on warlords, unless of course you take eldar aswell (codex working as intended right?)

About our codex standing on its own, it doesnt they chopped it into two and sold the covens half with more features. The Dark eldar detachment has a VERY lackluster formation formations (as i know them) in 7th codexes have been there to buff a playstyle or to give options This one boosts the PFP turn thats it.

I intend to keep this a civil talk and not battle everyone thats why i list this as a rant if you have an opinion on mine in favor or against go for it, Believe me when i say after posting this stuff i do feel better



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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 18:03

Also id figured id give some background here as to what i fight, im not asking for tactical advice just offering more insight into why i feel the way i do.

i currently fight tyranids and tau and on occasion Marines - (all of the codexes except dark angels) I know These faction haven't been hit by 7th yet but to release a new lowerpowered balance not all at once drives me insane.

And about using 5th edition codex ive been thinking about it i just need to find the most recent errata again
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 18:06

@Grimcrimm wrote:
Also id figured id give some background here as to what i fight, im not asking for tactical advice just offering more insight into why i feel the way i do.

i currently fight tyranids and tau and on occasion Marines - (all of the codexes except dark angels) I know These faction haven't been hit by 7th yet but to release a new lowerpowered balance not all at once drives me insane.

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What problems are you having against SM's nd Tyranids? The latter is usually a VERY favorable match up for us.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 18:12

@Grimcrimm wrote:
i just woke up i see people are agreeing and disagreeing bound to happen we all have different opponents and strategys and will see different parts of our codex thrive and others suffer do i think the codex is bad by 7th standards YES is it unplayable not at all. ive been using it since near week one and i feel it leaves too many holes in our army as of right now i see us as a Eldar supplement and thats why im angry thats why i made those points above.

Our AA is a gamble - who shoots first

Our high initiative is worthless if the enemy knows your assault units (mine do)

Nightfighting is supposed to be our thing with getting nightvision except nightfighting rules are terrible (very much an opinion) and one of my friends i fight often plays tau, and with no way to manipulate nightfighting our detachment and our formation do there job for ONE turn.

Speed is nice except after moving fast we cant shoot, we are not a fast army we are a mobile army, unless you deepstrike in, we get no way to manipulate this tactic unless you role a 2 on warlords, unless of course you take eldar aswell (codex working as intended right?)

About our codex standing on its own, it doesnt they chopped it into two and sold the covens half with more features. The Dark eldar detachment has a VERY lackluster formation formations (as i know them) in 7th codexes have been there to buff a playstyle or to give options This one boosts the PFP turn thats it.

I intend to keep this a civil talk and not battle everyone thats why i list this as a rant if you have an opinion on mine in favor or against go for it, Believe me when i say after posting this stuff i do feel better



Sometimes a nice rant can be good for the soul.  Glad to hear you feel better after posting yours.

One quibble I would have though is your statement that DE is bad by 7th edition standards.  Thus far, I've found that all 7th edition books are fairly well balanced against one another.  It's the hold out 6th edition books:  Eldar, Tau, Daemons, SM, and Necrons (although probably not for long) that are somewhat problematic.   

Sorry to hear that you've had less than satisfactory results with the new book.  I would just say keep tinkering around with the codex (supplement included) until you find something that works for you.  Best of luck!
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 18:15

No problems with tyranids other than luck explodes result every pen, his reserves therefore mawluc coming in after mine and never scattering. Against marines i can never bring enough armor breakers and when i do they either get shot out destroyed before getting close enough or when they come in they scatter and cease to exist or on better days roll back into reserves
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 19:56

My major bugbears were covered more or less by the guys in the podcast, being that some of our units, see wyches and hellions have no real use outside of dioramas. The fact that wyches lost their grenade upgrade and the attempted justifaction for it is hilariously sad when you realise that tau firewarriors can take them on each model for 2pts each.... less than we payed last edition.

The fact our terror grenades don't affect marines deserves an honourary slow clap as the author could have used that area of paper for a small doodle of a troll face for all the good it is... maybe GW just dont realise that the majority of the armies are marines.

We also no longer have support HQs to provide buffs like the duke, malys and the baron and the HQ we can cobble together, with string and paper mache, pack the equivalent punch of a wet flannel against anything with a 2+. Most of the gimmicky wargear we can take on them either: has a small amount of use or the deranged option of paying 30pts to make the model worse.

All in all this feels like GW just created another barebones codex with all the fun and interesting stuff ripped out and clumsy generic rules slapped on to replace them. Hastily realising what they had done they rushed out the supplement (something that could have easily been included in the codex, but hey if saps will buy it you can be sure GW will continue vomiting it out) to seize on the one powerful unit and further buff it into the stratosphere...

...
...
...
I feel somewhat better now.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 06:29

I really don't understand the level of despair over Wyches getting worse. They were marginal before and were really only good because they were more reliable at killing vehicles than throwing DL shots at them (especially when LoW came around). How fluffy or fun is having five Wyches kill a couple of Rhinos?

I can understand people are upset that units that people want to use didn't get better, but at the same time I never used to use Scourges and now I have two units.

I didn't really take Ravagers before and now I have three (I think the idea of them being "faster" before is blown out of proportion-they still had to maintain certain facings to be able to fire all three weapons which changes how you move, not to mention that they still wanted to stay at a decently far enough range that they didn't get clobbered in combat).

I didn't run combat before, so I didn't use an Archon and now I use two (I was the vanilla Haemonculus type).

While I get that a new book changes things and not always the way people want, I don't think it is fair to view it as being more limited.

I've faired far better in seventh with my DE than with my Marines and better than with DE, SM or SoB in 6th.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 07:06

@a1elbow wrote:
I really don't understand the level of despair over Wyches getting worse.  They were marginal before and were really only good because they were more reliable at killing vehicles than throwing DL shots at them (especially when LoW came around).  How fluffy or fun is having five Wyches kill a couple of Rhinos?

I can understand people are upset that units that people want to use didn't get better, but at the same time I never used to use Scourges and now I have two units.  

I didn't really take Ravagers before and now I have three (I think the idea of them being "faster" before is blown out of proportion-they still had to maintain certain facings to be able to fire all three weapons which changes how you move, not to mention that they still wanted to stay at a decently far enough range that they didn't get clobbered in combat).

I didn't run combat before, so I didn't use an Archon and now I use two (I was the vanilla Haemonculus type).

While I get that a new book changes things and not always the way people want, I don't think it is fair to view it as being more limited.

I've faired far better in seventh with my DE than with my Marines and better than with DE, SM or SoB in 6th.


My only founded complaint for wyches is their weapon choices are terrible the old choices offered utility or support like the shardnet for example, putting 15 points into this throwaway trpit isnt worth it for mildly useful rerolls, id pay out venom for old shardnets they made it so incoming casaultys were lessened increasing their ability to effectively tarpit.

When you need to move and kill a tank the ravager had a place, now its a slow crappy predator and if it jinks its a slow crappy nearly worthless predator.


People feel the wych hurt becasue the models and the lore are awesome but the squad has 0 options it tarpits and it dies - no OR here if they win a fight they will get blapped.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 07:25

@a1elbow wrote:
I really don't understand the level of despair over Wyches getting worse.  They were marginal before and were really only good because they were more reliable at killing vehicles than throwing DL shots at them (especially when LoW came around).  How fluffy or fun is having five Wyches kill a couple of Rhinos?

Fluff-wise I completely agree, but the removal of HWG from Wyches left them as a worthless unit. There's simply no benefit, in game terms, in taking them. They are an assault unit that can't get into assault and, if they do somehow manage that miracle, hit like a wet blanket and die in droves. They lost the only thing that was propping them up and made them worth taking and got precisely zero in return.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 08:18

@a1elbow wrote:
How fluffy or fun is having five Wyches kill a couple of Rhinos?

Just ask that Tau player...
http://youtu.be/f--kImiO1mU?t=47m18s

Wyches can't kill a Dreadnaught in close combat, but Fire Warriors can. That is pretty ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:27

Quote :
My only founded complaint for wyches is their weapon choices are terrible the old choices offered utility or support like the shardnet for example

They never were taken, those old Wych Weapons. Some played with Shardnets, but they were generally considered not worth it. I would gladly take 5 man wych squad if they could still take Venom Blade or Power Lance. Really i would, cheap, go in, throw grenade, do some damage.

Now its either power sword, with which you absolutely at best hitting with S4. Meaning still crap when fighting T4 and overcosted when fighting T3. And still crap compared to Venom Blade and Power Lance.
Or a bloody agoniser for 25 points. Just too expensive, dont worth it. So a unit does not have any favorable match ups. Its always uphill battle.

Wych Weapons have incidentaly AP5 which indicates that you should atack 5+ guys with them. But its the last thing you want to do with them. Eath overwatch in most the cases, eat multiple atacks back.

DE codex was writen by Phil Kelly. Whoever rewrote didnt understand half the stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:32

@Azdrubael wrote:
DE codex was writen by Phil Kelly. Whoever rewrote didnt understand half the stuff.

To be fair, Phil Kelly doesn't exactly have a stellar track record when it comes to making assault units useful. He's been reported as saying that if he gives every assault unit grenades then they may as well take out the rule about striking last without them (which I disagree with anyway) but clearly doesn't recognise the fact that an assault unit with no viable means of getting into assault relatively intact has no business being on the battlefield. Howling Banshees, Warp Talons, Wyches, Genestealers; the list goes on (although AFAIK Kelly isn't responsible for 'stealers). All units that have one job and can't do it.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:39

But he did make some really good ones. Dont remember if THunderwovles have grenades, but they were and are a good assault unit, beaststar, incubi. Lot of them were good.

Im also loving striking scorpions.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:40

The codex is totally playable, has plenty of fun units that are effective, and places us nicely in the middle of the power chart.

I just wish that the codex had turned us into fast, fragile, chaos-weaving assaulters that sow discord, concentrate their tactics on combat, and use fear as our greatest weapon.

This dex does none of that, and GW's insistence on turning every cdex rule into a generic USR, is a large part of that.

I want my girls in their pants to be gladiatorial ballet dancers: get in, slice&dice, and skip on to the next partner. If Wyches' dodge was 4++ all the time, and you paid for it, I would have an army of them!

I still include 5 Wyches, because I love the fluff, and love my models.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:43

@Count - Yeah, I agree, it seems to make more sense to penalise in this fashion units that are assaulting that aren't designed to do so.

@Azdrubael - I should point out in their defence that in the absolute best case scenario wyches are S5 (drugs and furious charge) but I still agree with your point.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 09:45

@Azdrubael wrote:
But he did make some really good ones. Dont remember if THunderwovles have grenades, but they were and are a good assault unit, beaststar, incubi. Lot of them were good.

Im also loving striking scorpions.  

TWC have grenades. Beasts and Incubi both relied on the PGL which no longer works that way and subsequently have taken a big hit in their utility. Scorpions never really appealed to me. Seems they're just delivery systems for Scorpion's Claws, a bit like Ork Boyz and Power Klaws.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 14:29

I think this codex is edited better than the last (with a few exceptions: court HQ mostly), and i have no idea yet whether or not it performs better or not. I like the compartmentalized approach to army building, but my main beef is with all my favorite evil friends dying....

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 16:04

@a1elbow wrote:
I really don't understand the level of despair over Wyches getting worse.  They were marginal before and were really only good because they were more reliable at killing vehicles than throwing DL shots at them (especially when LoW came around).  How fluffy or fun is having five Wyches kill a couple of Rhinos?

But that's the thing - new books are supposed to fix units.

They're supposed to be improvements on the last one - not just a way for GW to pick everyone's pockets.

In terms of fluff, I can at least imagine wyches skilfully planting/throwing grenades to bring down enemy vehicles. It certainly seems fluffier than having them hit like wet tissue paper in combat (which, incidentally, also describes their armour).

But, regardless, it's not annoying that they lost their anti tank - it's annoying that they got nothing to replace it.

@Count Adhemar wrote:

To be fair, Phil Kelly doesn't exactly have a stellar track record when it comes to making assault units useful. He's been reported as saying that if he gives every assault unit grenades then they may as well take out the rule about striking last without them

Good.

It's been a plague on the game for as long as I can remember.

At the very least, make it affect a characteristic that's important to *all* assault units - not just some. Reducing attacks would be much more logical.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 16:11

@The Shredder wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

To be fair, Phil Kelly doesn't exactly have a stellar track record when it comes to making assault units useful. He's been reported as saying that if he gives every assault unit grenades then they may as well take out the rule about striking last without them

Good.

It's been a plague on the game for as long as I can remember.

At the very least, make it affect a characteristic that's important to *all* assault units - not just some. Reducing attacks would be much more logical.

I agree. Yes, there should be a penalty for attacking units in cover/terrain but why Initiative, why does it not affect all races equally and why is the Imperium the only 'race' to recognise the issue and give their troops the means to overcome it?

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 16:42

Quote :
At the very least, make it affect a characteristic that's important to *all* assault units - not just some. Reducing attacks would be much more logical.
YEah, would be enough if it forces disordered charge, at least initiative still makes sense.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Fri Jan 09 2015, 17:18

Initiative represents one's speed in responsiveness, so it makes sense that climbing over cover would inhibit one's ability to react to those behind it. Assault grenades, in this context, are used to cause a distraction so the enemy isn't at such an obvious advantage. In this sense, reducing Initiative is perfectly logical, but I think it should be a negative modifier instead of a strict reduction to 1.

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