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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 18:36

Preamble: I love the dark eldar as a faction i loved to play them in 5th edition, but as of late ive had problems with this codex i just cant keep contained. Some may agree others will disagree but this is pure opinion. It took me awhile to post this because i was afraid people would think its spam. Here are the gripes.

They removed each of our support HQ's , Baron made hellions more survivable, the duke made anything with drugs better (or at least the chance) And could make one squad of trueborn or warriors better, lady malys made a unit immune to psykers (not the best but immune is better than adamantium will), no vect meant no seize on a 4+.

When they stripped our hq pool They took our ability to buff our units, With exception of FNP our new PfP table offers no utility (fearless comes too late for it to be useful) Furious charge will help your melee dudes who are too weak to survive prolonged melee (grots and incubi excluded mileage may vary) Unless their name is wyches they will be fighting at I1 if they so much as brush some difficult terrain.

Our army has been said to be hard i agreed with that in the past in our 5th edition codex, But now this is ridiculous. Something i had enjoyed about it was it HAD the option of being a dedicated melee army hell thats why one of the few changes i liked was the reaver. But now to me we look like the army with too many overly-specialized units that will do the same thing every game. Our three claims to utility are the scourges, the trueborn, And kind of the reavers.

It was NOT the haywire grenades that crippled wyches it was making their special weapons so Boring, uninspired, and NEAR useless. 3 wyches in a max sized squad rerolling wounds is worthless. three wyches each adding a D6 attacks improves the attack tide. The shardnet had a use before and now its a joke. The razorflails are what we have now but good (still didnt take them just figured id knock out all 3)

Hellions I LOVED these guys a tide of (at max size) 61 Strength 4 attacks out of 20 models that could unload dakka before charging, roll any good drugs and they could go crazy in combat.

My only issue with current mandrakes is that before they were bad and now that they are still bad me and my friends argue about what uses they offer. Two of my friends say they are good at holding objectives i disagree anything that is a MEQ will stomp them and take that point. Mandrakes just needed more range and id use them.

Archon cant take drugs, No one in their right mind would feed his soul trap, anything that does accept the challenge probably will kill him. Can no longer fight 2+ saves.

Succubus cant take a bike or board. Only problem here other than no way to re roll drugs

Haemys are more expensive for a unit who does not do melee well and only claim to fame in shooting is the ow gimped liquifier

Court: legitimate improvement one of too few in our book


Having 2 flyers fill the same roles and being too expensive because forced upgrades.

PGL changes HURT EVERY MELEE UNIT THE BOOK, replaced with a subpar weapon that doesnt work against the measuring stick used to compare units in the game (MEQs)

Djinn blade: Looks better at first until you realize it was a powerweapon before

Ravager: loss of aerial assault killed this thing for me

Nightshield: Better before kept us alive vs the enemy infantry

You may notice how i didnt bring up covens thats because there only problem in antiarmor
When they Made 100 formations for coven they screwed wychcult and they screwed normal Dark eldar.

The formation realspace something or other effects include 1 turn forward (not bad) A mild cover save in the open (Almost worthless.

Detachment: 6 FA slots good, crappy cover effect bad. NO LORD OF WAR REALLY BAD


If you read through this im sorry and you deserve a medal ive just been so frustrated lately My codex cant do what i like anymore. And if it can its been crippled.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 20:08

I feel you man, we all went through your stage as well...

Well, it can do some new things. Sorta. Coven formations are good, 3 of them.
WWP is good and not fully explored.

6 FA detachment makes for a much more offensive army. Never before could i take 2 reavers, 2 scourges, 2 razorwings, 3 Ravagers and Talos and Cronos with deepstrike in one army. You can now score with everything, so a completely new venue of armies are now possible.

Actually melee centric army now is possible.

Raider wyches by themselfs now suck, but im still painting 20 of them to drop via WWP with coven haemon and see what happens.

Most of the new releases have the same power level so when eldar got their new edition it might be a fair game.

Flyers are good. I mean Razorwing. I kinda like Voidraven, but thats just because i own it.

PGL change suck, but its freaking awesome for campaign play. Im painting Broken Sigil Kabal, they are basically Night Lords for Dark Eldar. So i love those. Even if they suck on marines. I dont afraid of marines. They often have allies and those do know fear.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 20:40

This kind of opinion is useless. Its no different to when old people go on about "in my day, when I was a kid". Get over it and move on. I have only been playing dark Eldar since 7th edition and have had nothing but success. People can complain about any army and even if every unit had every grenade and 2+ inv on everything people would still complain. They are a great army to play with, fun and hit like a tone of bricks. On the subject of wyches they are constantly some of my most effective units, I really can't see how people can be constantly complaining about them, 4+ inv in close combat alone makes them a great option.
Personaly if you can accept what you have now with dark Eldar you will no doubt start to enjoy playing more.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 21:44

Its not about acceptance its about having the playstyle you used ripped away with no way to replace it. my issue isnt with each of those changes listed but all of them together making a reason i loved playing Deldar Disappear

I got into 40k in the beginning of 7th thanks to a friend and played the 5th edition codex and loved it, but im having problems finding a reason to want to PLAY them now


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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 22:20

SaturdayNightWrist wrote:
On the subject of wyches they are constantly some of my most effective units, I really can't see how people can be constantly complaining about them, 4+ inv in close combat alone makes them a great option.

And S3, T3 with no real save outside of combat makes them a poor option. If Wyches are constantly effective for you then you need to play against better opponents. Against competent opposition no Wyches will get into close combat with sufficient numbers to threaten anything other than the weakest of units.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 22:33

This book feels like a lot of missed opportunities.

- Who, on the design team, added the 'can't affect models with ATSKNF' clause to Soulfright? Is he also going to remove marines' grenades, flamers and plasmaguns and replace them with a weapon that cant hurt units with PfP? If the answer is 'no' then I invite him to jam a fork in his eye.  

- We now have a lot of Ld debuffs... but all our pinning and Ld-based artefacts have been removed (except the stuff that don't work on marines, obviously).

- Agoniser is now poisoned... but Lhamaeran's buff to poison has been removed.

- Hellions are cheaper... but lost The Baron *and* their extra attack.

- Archon got a small survivability boost... at the cost of all AP2 weapons.

- Mandrakes gained stealth and shrouded... but lost the 5++ that protected them in melee.

- Wyches had theiy haywire grenades removed, so they must be good in melee now, right? right...?

- Bloodbrides.

- Where did the Venom Blade go?

- Huskblade now worthless. False choices really make codices fun.

- Urien's special regeneration, a massive part of his fluff and appearance, just removed. Urien's ability to buff Grotesques, also removed. Urien's really awful shooting weapon, still there. Hooray. Neutral

- Liquifier Guns got more expensive... and then got nerfed to S3. I guess they'll typically cause as much damage as 3 flamers?

- Speaking of which, the Shredder still isn't a template weapon.

- Dark Lances got marginally cheaper on infantry, but more expensive on other platforms.

- Also, why aren't they AP1? That way they might not suck at their job.

- Where are our skyfire weapons? Or, was this codex written back in 5th?

- Virtually all our squads are made 5-minimum... yet no improvement in Venom transport capacity.

- Wracks and Hellions not troops, but also not buffed to be worth taking as elites or FA.

- Where are my Venom Blades?

- Haemonculi still don't come with Stinger Pistols as standard.

- Talos and Cronos no longer have PfP because reasons.

- PfP table still fails to acknowledge the ranged units exist. Or, for that matter, that coven units exist.

- Someone please punch whichever idiot on the design team wrote the rules for the Djin Blade. Then punch the rest of the design team for agreeing with him, instead of say... firing him on the spot and burning all his work.

- Oh look, more DLC that could have just been included in the main book.

SaturdayNightWrist wrote:
Get over it and move on.

Oh look, it's someone from GW's marketing department. Rolling Eyes
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Wed Jan 07 2015, 23:11

Our codex is very flawed. Possibly the most flawed that is currently out. The authors have made some awful decisions. I think every single Dark Eldar player can agree on that.
But complaining amongst eachother and discussing the same flaws over and over won't change anything for us.

Our only hope is that the next Dark Eldar codex will do better.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 04:18

I couldn't relate less to this post and it is no surprise why. I didn't run combat units in fifth or sixth and I certainly don't now unless you count Caltrops. Combat clearly got worse in this book, but I think it is a superior book to the last.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 09:02

I've got to say I'm in complete agreement with a1elbow here - whilst I realise and acknowledge that some of the stuff in our codex isn't great (yes, I'm looking at you, Wyches & Hellions) I'm really enjoying the variety and flexibility we have to build lists with the new codex and its supplement.

I now have coven units, which I never bothered with before, and I can think of half a dozen ways of building an interesting, fun and fairly competitive list.

Grumbling about Hellions and Wracks not being available as troops anymore is pointless - the supplement basically lets you take wrack troops anyway, and all the codices are getting stripped back to prevent all kinds of force org switching and keeping just basic troops in the troops slot (exhibit a - Blood Angels no longer being able to take Assault Squads and Death Company as Troops)

Combat is not just an issue for us, though its exacerbated by the fragility of wyches, combat in 6th and 7th editions is just not a sensible build option - you've only got to look at all the tyranid players out there who arm their hive tyrants and carnifexes with guns instead of combat weapons to see that (though you might see combat nids a bit more with the advent of tyrranocytes). Oh yeah, and how many ork armies do you see these days without a massive squad of lootas?

Don't get me wrong - I get that you don't like the changes, but you always have the option of playing whichever edition you want against your friends. Ultimately there's only one way you're gonna change things and that's be joining GW's design team...

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:01

I can definitely agree on a lot of missed opportunities, but I don't think this book is worse than the previous. It's a lot of fun and has far more viable playstyles other than venom spam or beastpack.

While beastpack got worse (as well as wyches, but let's face it, no one really used them to assault non vehicles in the last edition either) - assault is not worse in this codex. It's just different - Grotesques are fantastic assault units now, and our Succubus got better and makes for a great combination with the grotesques.

Even our reavers got a lot better in assault, and somewhat replace the assault/anti tank capabilities that the wyches were used for previously - although they are far more mobile. The Talos is beastly now too, especially when taken in multiples or the dark artisan and corpsethief claw formations.

They solved the main issues the talos had from the last codex while still making it even better (loss of PfP is sad though) the ability to take 3 in a squad means that they can make it across the table without getting wiped out. The Dark Artisan and Corpsethief Claw formations address its speed issue (dark artisan can get a webway portal and corpsethief has 5 taloi with scout)

Our shooting is just as great as before even with the few small nerfs to splinter cannons and loss of aerial assault etc. But scourges became fantastic with just the simple option of allowing 4 heavy weapons instead of 2.

overall this book has far more viable options, and not just viable - but competitive. Who would've thought the talos would've been a competitive choice, and now I strongly believe it is. Reavers became our most versatile unit, scourges kicking ass.

Try to look at this book standing on its own rather than comparing to the last codex. Our last book wasnt exactly amazing any way.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:13

Caldria wrote:
Try to look at this book standing on its own rather than comparing to the last codex. Our last book wasnt exactly amazing any way.

The mass disappointment comes from the fact that it isn't standing on it's own. People were rightfully expecting an improved version of the previous codex, not just a different one.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:24

Rokuro wrote:
The mass disappointment comes from the fact that it isn't standing on it's own.

Debateable. I think the point Caldria is making, and one which I agree with, is that the book does stand on its own. Clearly that's something you disagree with, but in the way you're entitled to disagree with it, we're also entitled to hold that opinion.

Looking at the realspace raids section I certainly think it's fair to say that DE players are doing pretty well, with a variety of differing lists.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:43

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
the supplement basically lets you take wrack troops anyway

No, it very definitely does not.

It lets you take Wracks as Elites, just like the codex.

Nor do they get any benefits normally reserved for troops - like Objective Secured.

They are not troops in any shape or form.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 10:52

My point was that whilst they still remain elites, you can't take any troops choices, so wracks squads or grotesques become your 'troops'.

I'm not suggesting they swap battlefield roles, but you can take lots of units of them like you can with troops if you're using a CAD.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 11:07

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Rokuro wrote:
The mass disappointment comes from the fact that it isn't standing on it's own.

Debateable. I think the point Caldria is making, and one which I agree with, is that the book does stand on its own. Clearly that's something you disagree with, but in the way you're entitled to disagree with it, we're also entitled to hold that opinion.

Looking at the realspace raids section I certainly think it's fair to say that DE players are doing pretty well, with a variety of differing lists.

I meant that as 'it being the Codex: Dark Eldar 1.3', not as 'it isn't working'.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 11:30

At first when this Codex came out I thought, well were doomed. And I 100% agree that they missed some great tricks and effectively ruined the assault for anything other than grots. But after however long its been, I actually do enjoy it and there are some good points. As said before, grots are better, scourges and reavers are much better, mandrakes have had an improvement I guess, shadowfield is better... Its certainly a workable dex, I don't miss a LoW because I would never invest so many points into a single model unless I am doing an apocolypse!

Like any player I miss the old huskblade and soultrap (new soultrap is really really daft), i miss the HQs, I miss haywire grenades a bit (they were op to be honest) and I obviously miss grenades. Its a classic example of GW writing a codex based on fluff rather then play. We are flawed, but in the right hands we can still be a brutal army. Forums like this make us far more efficient at killing stuff, this is one of the best communities out there and I strongly suspect that the reason why DE are successful in some cases despite the lack of thought in the codex is due to the library of tactics and lists here. In fact, what catches most players off guard is that because we have so much garbage, we have to play differently to any army out there and many players simply cant adapt to that!

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 11:35

that and poison - with bike lists being so common these days poison increased in value despite not changing

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 11:43

Grub wrote:
Its a classic example of GW writing a codex based on fluff rather then play.

I doubt it.

If they really were going by fluff, then they never would have made the Ravager into just another marine vehicle.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 11:54

The Shredder wrote:
Grub wrote:
Its a classic example of GW writing a codex based on fluff rather then play.

I doubt it.

If they really were going by fluff, then they never would have made the Ravager into just another marine vehicle.

I must have missed the fast skimmer deep striking AV10 triple lance tank in the marine codex... lol!

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 11:57

They nevertheless made it better when cowering behind cover than flying around as fast as possible.

That is the exact opposite of the Ravager's fluff.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:12

Yeah but largely right? Winning through terror is a great fluffy idea, just not practical. Wyches being gladiators rather then tank busters, night shields giving stealth is fine, mandrakes being shadows makes sense. Deepstriking transports fluffy. Yeah vehicles not having a 12" combat speed is non fluffy but would largely be a tad game breaking, should be on the ravager but as said before, they don't play the game!

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:16

Grub wrote:
Yeah but largely right? Winning through terror is a great fluffy idea, just not practical.

Well, it would have been fine if they hadn't added the stupid 'can't affect models with And They Shall Know No Rules' restriction.

Grub wrote:
Wyches being gladiators rather then tank busters

Well, they fixed the latter part but then seemingly forgot to make them gladiators.

Grub wrote:
night shields giving stealth is fine

Maybe if they'd left them at their old point cost.

Grub wrote:
Yeah vehicles not having a 12" combat speed is non fluffy but would largely be a tad game breaking

It really wouldn't be. It's supposed to be our reward for having the flimsiest vehicles in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:26

I do agree with you on the above! In other codexs their night shield equivalents are mainly camo nets etc which are 15 points so I guess its fair-ish.

Flimsy vehicles yeah, but the changes to jink do make us quite resilient against anything bar massed strength 5/6 shots (ignoring Tau cheese missiles right). It would be nice, perhaps they should have given occupants snapshoot on 5+ when moving up to 12" perhaps then fine but it would probably make us a tad too mobile with all the firepower. How would an assault army ever reach you?

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:39

Grub wrote:
I do agree with you on the above! In other codexs their night shield equivalents are mainly camo nets etc which are 15 points so I guess its fair-ish.

But those options generally give +1 cover save rather than Stealth and therefore would stack with Stealth from night-fighting.

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PostSubject: Re: My problems with our codex (warning rant)   Thu Jan 08 2015, 12:41

That is a very good point actually! Hadn't thought of that! Haha I retract my point Razz

Also, fair-ish, 2+ saves on all the vehicles would be silly!

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