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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Mon Jan 05 2015, 22:19

I'm normally very much a ranged man (my old DE lists had basically no melee stuff at all), but recently I've recently been trying some melee Coven stuff - specifically the Grotesquerie formation (2 units of 4 Grotesques with Aberrations in Raiders - one joined by the formation Haemonculus, the other by a Succubus or similar).

Anyway, I've had some success with it (and some unpleasant failures), but I remain unsure as to whether this is a good use of points. Mainly because Grotesques seem to have quite a few hard-counters. At range, things like Manticores and Demolisher Cannons will wreck them, whilst in melee Force Weapons, MSS, S10 and any other ID weapons will slaughter them.

I guess my real concern is that if I run into a list with the above, I have so many points invested in Grotesques (About 650 out of my 1500pt list) that I don't have enough left to out-shoot said list.

Really, I was just wondering how others feel about the Grotesquerie and whether anyone has similar thoughts/experiences? If so, how do you deal with it - do you include smaller Grotesque squads, do you not use the formation (and/or just include a single squad from the DE book)?

Or, should I just not be using the Grotesquerie at 1500pts?
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 03:12

I love the grotesquerie! It is fantastic. They are best used for hitting horde elements, light to medium troops. I don't throw them at things that will pound them to dirt...My talos handle that better then maybe join in with a charging grot squad. Manticores and demolisher cannons aren't the 'in thing' these days, so I'm less worried about those. Don't forget raiders can deep strike if you need to avoid some alpha strike or get within a manticores minimum range (24" i believe). The great thing about the grotesquerie, is that you have a 1/6 change at +1 Toughness which is pretty sweet and helps them last that much longer. The key is to dictate what they attack, not letting your opponent do that to you.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 04:21

Do not forget - null deployment. This is what makes it tick.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 04:44

The only thing inhibiting about Grotesques are the prices of models, whether you go finecast route or Crypt Horror + Taloi kits.

That said, they are just about the best multi-purpose unit in any list.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 08:07

@ligolski I would almost never deep strike assault units in raiders when they can come on from the table edge and be anyware 30" into the board without scatter (36" with sails). This is far more reliable and accurate. Not to mention it can avoid intercepter as long as you are out of range or out of sight in your movement phase.The two exceptions to this are hammer and anvil deployment and not being able to hide/be out of range from a unit with interceptor that can reliably down your raider before it turboboosts.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 10:18

The ranged threats aren't too bad (though people in my group do use Demolishers and Manticores).

It's more the melee threat I'm worried about.

e.g. if I'm playing GKs, where are the squishy targets? Do I assault his Terminators + Librarian + Draigo squad, his Dreadknight, his other Dreadknight or his Strike Squad? I guess the Strike Squad is the less-horrible choice, but what about after that? I've then used 650pts to take out about 200pts of throwaway unit, and probably lost some grotesques in the process.

Likewise, what do I throw them against when facing Necrons - where every major squad is joined by a Destroyer Lord or Overlord with MSS?

No one else has these issues?
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 10:27

Not yet, though granted I've never used the grotesquerie, it's always been a unit of grots as bodyguard for a succubus, where one or the other has waltzed through units of noise marines, tyranid warriors and (as you'd expect) guardsmen vets.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 10:30

Yeah, enhanced sails more or less guarantee that if you have first turn there will be a grotesque assault turn 2. Not for deepstriking them when the raider is there for delivering the grots only.

I have run a grotesquery 4 times, each with 4 Grots supported by a scussorhand and sump haemocules and an archon or succubus in the other. They have rinsed everything. They almost singlehandedly took down a ravenwing army in one huge multi-assault, they chew through tau (even riptides, the smash hurts but the lethal dose can be great!), imperial guard are a chew toy and necrons were no match.  GK with hammerhand and force weapons are not great at all. The only time I've put grots up against Gk they got chopped to pieces. Too dangerous. The times you lose grots is from massed shooting, so you really want to chain assaults.

As said in the op, they are expensive, which is why I keep them bare bones. 4 works like a charm, I don't feel the need for an aberation or any other upgrades as they are already great and sticking an independent character with them is better anyway. I run them at about 490 points. Then allows enough venom spam and blaster fudgery to handle the shooting.

Also, that time when you get the 4+ FnP with them, the only thing you will hear from an opponent is how overpowered they are. This is becoming a chant in my local group!

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 10:34

@The Shredder wrote:
The ranged threats aren't too bad (though people in my group do use Demolishers and Manticores).

It's more the melee threat I'm worried about.

e.g. if I'm playing GKs, where are the squishy targets? Do I assault his Terminators + Librarian + Draigo squad, his Dreadknight, his other Dreadknight or his Strike Squad? I guess the Strike Squad is the less-horrible choice, but what about after that? I've then used 650pts to take out about 200pts of throwaway unit, and probably lost some grotesques in the process.

Likewise, what do I throw them against when facing Necrons - where every major squad is joined by a Destroyer Lord or Overlord with MSS?

No one else has these issues?

Against GK I'd agree that there really are no decent targets for a Grotesquerie as Force Weapons really are the bane of Grots. The Necron issue is not a problem unique to Grots, it applies to absolutely any assault unit. Nothing wants to get into combat against a guy with MSS and a Warscythe! We can only hope that they fix the MSS problem with the new Necron Codex. A mechanic that is effectively unavoidable, takes your own guy out of action, still allows the opponent to attack at full effect, can damage your own unit/characters and that works on even LD10 on average rolls is simply too good to stay in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 10:58

@Grub wrote:
GK with hammerhand and force weapons are not great at all.

Wait... weapons that kill you on 3s aren't great at all? Shocked

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The Necron issue is not a problem unique to Grots, it applies to absolutely any assault unit. Nothing wants to get into combat against a guy with MSS and a Warscythe!

Indeed, but Grots seem like one of the worst possible melee units to be subjected to it:
- I can't think of any other melee units with Ld3/4. Another unit might roll well and pass the test. With Grots, it's basically guaranteed that they'll fail.
- Their Flesh Gauntlets are great for taking themselves out - with 4+ poison and ID on 6s.
- They're small squads - if one Grot fails his test, that's 1/4 of your attacks gone.

In any case, that's kind of the point - is it better to just drop the grots and avoid melee altogether?

@Count Adhemar wrote:
We can only hope that they fix the MSS problem with the new Necron Codex. A mechanic that is effectively unavoidable, takes your own guy out of action, still allows the opponent to attack at full effect, can damage your own unit/characters and that works on even LD10 on average rolls is simply too good to stay in the game.

MSS works on Ld10 exactly 50% of the time.

But, that aside, I agree - it's a ridiculous mechanic that should never have got past playtesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 11:02

Haha no no no not great for us at all!

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 11:17

Ah, I see. When I first read your post I thought you were saying the Grey Knights got chopped to pieces. Nevermind then.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 15:29

@The Shredder wrote:
e.g. if I'm playing GKs, where are the squishy targets? Do I assault his Terminators + Librarian + Draigo squad, his Dreadknight, his other Dreadknight or his Strike Squad? I guess the Strike Squad is the less-horrible choice, but what about after that? I've then used 650pts to take out about 200pts of throwaway unit, and probably lost some grotesques in the process.
Which of the squads did he activate Force on?
Which did he not?
How many dice did he use? Did you deny one?

Without Force up a lot of Gray Knight issues become less problematic.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 15:37

@Thor665 wrote:

Which of the squads did he activate Force on?
Which did he not?
How many dice did he use? Did you deny one?

Without Force up a lot of Gray Knight issues become less problematic.

This. In a doubles tournament a little while ago, my Grotz chewed through both a unit of GK terminators with a Libbie AND a Nemesis Dread Knight. And that's in one combat phase per unit!
The only truly offensive power he tried to cast was Force, and it either failed or I denied it. I think the other one was guide, but it was cast at a unit that was meant to shoot some of my buddies' Wave Serpents.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 15:39

It's very much reliant on luck whether you can deny Force though and if you don't, you're pretty much toast. Very expensive toast but toast nonetheless.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 16:01

Great, now I'm hungry for toast! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 16:09

@Thor665 wrote:

Which of the squads did he activate Force on?
Which did he not?
How many dice did he use? Did you deny one?

I haven't faced my friend's GK army yet, fortunately.

However, denying force seems optimistic at best. He has a minimum of 10 power dice. I have a minimum of 1.

Even if I get the maximum 6 power dice (which is not something I'd want to rely on), he still has 16 power dice to cast force with. He needs a single success and casts on 4s, I need to dispel *every* success and do so only on 6s. And, even if I dispel it, his terminator squad can try twice more. Same goes for Hammerhand.

Also, bear in mind that he only needs to activate force on 2 units - his terminators and strike squad. His DKs don't need it as they just ID my Grotesques with S10.

Furthermore, even if he only gets Hammerhand on his terminators, that's likely to be all he needs. My Grotesques simply won't survive against S6-7 terminators, Librarian and Draigo as I just won't be able to deal meaningful damage back.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 16:14

Yup. Which is why I wouldn't charge them in. Termies go down best to shooting anyway, let the venoms and blasters, darklances and disintergrators troll them, don't play to their advantage. If you find yourself playing with grots against GK well your still going to assault them really? Perhaps take a helmet of spite or whatever it is and try and force some wounds that way. GK are designed to be able to kill stuff like grots and other multi wound, high toughness stuff. Play to your own advantages, even if it means using grots as a bullet sponge I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 16:25

@The Shredder wrote:
Even if I get the maximum 6 power dice (which is not something I'd want to rely on), he still has 16 power dice to cast force with. He needs a single success and casts on 4s, I need to dispel *every* success and do so only on 6s. And, even if I dispel it, his terminator squad can try twice more.

No they can't. No unit can attempt to manifest the same power more than once per psychic phase.

Plus if he wants to roll more than 4-5 dice to pretty much guarantee the cast then he also has a significant risk of perils.

Not that I'm saying you actually have a decent chance of denying but it's not as bad as you make out.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 16:58

@Grub wrote:
Yup. Which is why I wouldn't charge them in. Termies go down best to shooting anyway, let the venoms and blasters, darklances and disintergrators troll them, don't play to their advantage. If you find yourself playing with grots against GK well your still going to assault them really? Perhaps take a helmet of spite or whatever it is and try and force some wounds that way. GK are designed to be able to kill stuff like grots and other multi wound, high toughness stuff. Play to your own advantages, even if it means using grots as a bullet sponge I guess.

But that's the thing - am I really going to win a shooting match when ~650pts of my list is contributing naff-all?

@Count Adhemar wrote:

No they can't. No unit can attempt to manifest the same power more than once per psychic phase.

There are 2 characters in the terminator unit. The terminators can attempt to cast force. If they fail, the librarian can try to cast force. If he fails, Draigo can attempt to cast force. If any of these succeed, they affect the entire unit.

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Plus if he wants to roll more than 4-5 dice to pretty much guarantee the cast then he also has a significant risk of perils.

How many does he need to roll? Statistically, even throwing all my dice, I will struggle to dispel even a single success. And, as above, his terminators have 3 attempts.

Also, even if he gets Perils, so what? Oh no, he might take a wound! Of course, it will let him breeze through 15 wounds of Grotesques and attached character (about 260pts), but he might take a single wound. The horror!

Sorry for sarcasm, but the effects of perils are just insignificant when weighed against the damage his psychic power will do.

Yes, my opponent might roll 2+ 6s on 3-4 dice, then he might roll a 1 on the Perils table, then he might fail his Ld test on Ld9-10 and lose Draigo or his Lirarian. He might also have a heart attack mid-game. Neither are things I'd want to rely on in order to have a chance of beating him.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 17:28

Addressing the original question, the Grotesquerie is a great unit. If you support with a Dark Artisan it becomes borderline amazing and very, very hard to kill. However! There are hard counters to almost every unit in 40K and Force/Instant Death weapons are the Grots' hard counter. If you know you're facing Force-spamming Grey Knights and don't want to risk losing your expensive, high toughness, multi-wound models to Force weapons, then just go with a shooty list. If you want to season with some assault units, then maybe this would be an instance where Incubi are worth a try due to their AP 2 attacks, high initiative, and the fact that they only have one wound so Force doesn't really matter against them. If they get hit back, they're probably dead regardless of Force.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 18:08

A couple of questions:

1) How do you support the Grotesques with Dark Artisan? Do you walk them up the field, or still use WWP to get them in position? Also, do you charge both in together, or just use them near each other?

2) Is this viable at 1500pts, or do you take them at higher point levels?
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 18:32

Has anyone rolled for Hammy Warlord Trait to get Master Regenesist?
I imagine turn one IWND would make them quite horrible for the opponent, although chances are small to even get it.
Would it be worth it?
Or is it just for extreme gambling fun?

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 19:28

@Marrath wrote:
Has anyone rolled for Hammy Warlord Trait to get Master Regenesist?

I actually rolled that in my last game.

Though, as it turned out, it wasn't really necessary. The grotesques only took a single wound, though they did regenerate it thanks to said warlord trait.

Considering the other formations, I'm really surprised this one doesn't give Master Regenesist automatically.

@Marrath wrote:

Would it be worth it?

Depends on how much damage they take early on, I imagine. I mean, they have IWND by turn 3 anyway. And, if their transport is destroyed on turn 1 I'm not sure IWND will save them. tongue

Might also depend on what you've given your warlord. Gaining IWND early could be helpful for spreading wounds over the unit and regaining them. But, if he has the Sump or Panacea, it's a waste.

@Marrath wrote:
Or is it just for extreme gambling fun?

Well, it depends on how much you value the rest of the table (and whether you're going for flavour or function):

Master Artisan - Probably not much use.
Master Regenesist - See this discussion. Wink
Master Symphoneus - Depends if you have reserves or not
Master Epicurean - This one could be very useful. If the enemy is using ID weapons against your squad, you'll at least get some VPs back when your warlord dies.
Master of Apotheosis - Meh. 4+ FNP on your warlord isn't anything to write home about, but might keep him alive or help him tank some wounds.
Master Nemesine - Yes please!

However, not being able to reroll warlord traits - even Coven ones - makes me sad. Crying or Very sad

If you didn't roll on this table, which table would you roll on instead? Strategic?
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Grotesquerie   Tue Jan 06 2015, 21:30

@The Shredder wrote:
But that's the thing - am I really going to win a shooting match when ~650pts of my list is contributing naff-all?
We're talking in a vacuum here, buddy. What is the army size and point total? What is your list, what is his list?

In one breath he has multiple Termies and Draigo sitting around dropping huge handfuls to get off Force, in the next he's outshooting you with...well, no psychic powers other than Force? Meh.

He'll weak roll some of his powers - if it's Force deny and charge. If it's shooting deny and shoot back.

You're also DE - lances and splinter fire work pretty well for killing Knights and Termies, especially with the way you can outmove and out range him. So, yes, if the rest of your list is designed well you can still out shoot him. I think in the current dex, a Grey Knight list packing what you're listing is actually quite functional to be out-shot by the DE - we're a pretty functional shooting army with a lot of ability to deal with what the Grey Knights can field.

Also the Grots aren't "doing nothing" on the presumption he has other stuff in his army. Attack soft units to deny scoring. Attack his tanks and glance them to death by headbutting the rear of them. You can even maybe force him to send stuff over to beat up your Grots which will allow your shooting units more turns to shoot and work their magic. Use the Grots in deployment as a sheild for your vehicles to prevent Shunt flaming from the Knights. Use the Grots to camp an out of the way objective, obligating a strong unit to go dismantle them while the rest of your army shoots. The only use for Grots is not simply being a sledgehammer to everything - they are also distraction, objective sitter, anti-mech, and defensive line and due to their adaptability they will serve the purpose you need them to depending on the situation.

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