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 Beasts à la Sabretusk?

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Would you run a small Beastpack as a throw-away unit?
Yes, they are absolutely worth it!
60%
 60% [ 6 ]
No, they are a waste of points!
40%
 40% [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 10
 

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Khalifeth Drakh
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PostSubject: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Fri Jan 02 2015, 05:48

For those of you unfamiliar with WHFB, Sabretusks are used as a cheap, single model redirector and harassing unit. They can be used to set up or deny charges, hunt the backfield for lone casters (or fragile solo characters in general), or as suicide bombs to target a defensively susceptible character in a unit. In short, they're an awesome tactical, yet disposable, unit that must generally be destroyed by an opponent wasting a unit's firepower on a single, cheap model or risk serious potential damage to their strategy.

Are our Beastpacks the 40k equivalent? If so, how would you run them? A single Clawed Fiend or Khymera? Or would you run a Beastmaster with it for LD8? Granted, they can always be shot by a small squad or witchfire power, thus negating "wasting" shots, but those are still shots not going towards your troops. Would you allow a Clawed Fiend to get in to your artillery unit or at your allied Farseer? Does the small point cost of a Fiend or Khymera warrant notice in your meta?

I am quite curious and intrigued at this notion.

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Drakh.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Fri Jan 02 2015, 12:21

Running chaff is really useful in Fantasy, and small, disposable units of Dire Wolves appear in every Vampire Counts list I make.

The trouble is, in Fantasy your unit type restrictions are based on a percentage of your total points (ie, at least 25% of your points must be spent on Core units), as opposed to occupying slots in 40k.

Given that beast packs are competing for slots with Reavers, Razorwings, and Scourges, I think the only way you could do this is if you're using the Realspace Raiders detachment.

In Fantasy, one of the main uses for chaff units is baiting enemy regiments into charges that pull them out of position, forcing them to spend the following turn reforming or turning around. If I do it right, I can expect the noble (and repeated) sacrifice of my Dire Wolves to waste 2 turns of an enemy regiment's time. Whereas in 40k, you're just soaking a single turn of shooting.

So comparing chaff in 40k vs Fantasy, I think you're sacrificing more to accomplish less.

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Fri Jan 02 2015, 21:17

A single Khymera can only distract one unit for one turn before it dies. As Calyptra said, that would be a waste of a fast attack slot. Not to mention that you'd pretty much be offering your opponent a free victory point for first blood.

If you want to use Khymerae, even if just as a distraction, should bring more of them, so they can actually deal some damage and won't die instantly. Also, throw in a Beastmaster for increased Leadership.

Also, Beasts in general can be very useful units if there is a lot of difficult terrain.


Last edited by Rokuro on Fri Jan 02 2015, 22:14; edited 1 time in total
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Fri Jan 02 2015, 22:08

What if you have Fast Attack slots free and say a spare 10-20 points? Better to upgrade something you already have or is a Khymera a good idea then?
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Fri Jan 02 2015, 22:18

@Hellstrom wrote:
What if you have Fast Attack slots free and say a spare 10-20 points?  Better to upgrade something you already have or is a Khymera a good idea then?

I'd rather buy an upgrade for those points. One or two Khymerae will more often than not be just an easy target.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Fri Jan 02 2015, 23:21

Blocking, screening, contesting and scoring are the 40k equivalent of sabertusk charge redirection/march blocking. For this you need a multi model squad that is cheap and mobile.

Beast could fill this roll but I find 3-6 model reaver squads are much better at it.

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Sat Jan 03 2015, 03:49

Not sure I agree entirely. Yes reavers are no doubt good. If I played a beast or two ( assuming realspace here), they could come in from reserves (if you are afraid of giving u FB). They are plenty fast enough to get where they are needed. If you start them in cover on the table or out of LoS they are still going to be good.

1) Primary use would be to eat over watch methinks.  
2) TBH, if you field a few beats  -lets say two in a pack - they will have to draw fire - that is never bad.
3) If ignored they can sit on an objective in cover or go fo linebreaker late game.
4) For blocking and screening - I'm not sold on this. They are not a big enough footprint to screen. Maybe to tar pit a turn or two against a unit with poor cc capabilities would be useful.

If you look at Necron lists you often find a tomb blade or two. They are not there to do damage. Destroyers do more damage then they do. But they are cheap units for contesting and linebreaker. I see beasts filling a similar role.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Sat Jan 03 2015, 06:27

There was a thread on a single Clawed Fiend.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Sat Jan 03 2015, 13:10

I find reavers are excellent at backfield hunting, distracting, movement blocking and screening. They are also much faster than beasts and 126pts for 6 with 2 caltrops is a bargain that will wreck havoc if ignored.

Even when i'm running 6 FA choices (which is often) I don't think i'd want to give up a unit of reavers or scourges or a razorwing for a beast unit.
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Sat Jan 03 2015, 13:46


I think the point is that a single beast is very cost efficient. It is a low priority unit as well. The OP is asking if they can be effective in a list - i.e., fill a purpose - I believe they can. I'm not going to compare them to units that cost considerably more and have a different purpose. I also prefer reavers and razorwings and scourges BUT that does not mean I might not test a single beast if the point wise it makes sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Sun Jan 04 2015, 19:25

@egorey wrote:

I think the point is that a single beast is very cost efficient. It is a low priority unit as well. The OP is asking if they can be effective in a list  - i.e., fill a purpose - I believe they can. I'm not going to compare them to units that cost considerably more and have a different purpose. I also prefer reavers and razorwings and scourges BUT that does not mean I might not test a single beast if the point wise it makes sense.

+1
Beasts are not what they where but what they use to be. A little distraction unit that can help out in different ways.
Sure it competes against some pretty good choice, but that does not make them a bad unit.
My units to get out would be
6 x Khymera and a Beastmaste.
Small distraction unit. Maybe even still to big to big.
Or
2 x Clawed Fiend, 2 x Khymera, a Beastmaster and maybe a Razorwing Flock.
As there are three different toughness values that all tie with each other, the highest one is used when shooting against it.
For 110 points a beast unit with W 12 and T5 is a welcome distraction. And with only 6 models in the unit, the overall footprint isn't too big.

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katfude
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts à la Sabretusk?   Thu Jan 08 2015, 09:36

Go unbound, take 200 individual khymerae for a 2k list.

Otherwise, it is a bit wasteful of our best slot, unless you end up with an empty slot and some points to spare, there are worse choices than a solitary beast.

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