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Grub
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 10:49

I get what you saying Burning Eye and it is very game dependent as well. But besides sticking them with a wwp Archon where you are still looking at 255 point minimum investment, I just think they can be utilised better. A wwp blasterborn unit in a raider would be a better "suicide unit" as you could position to somewhere around 18", pop whatever and still be in cover and take some punishment. A scourge squad will take one round of shooting or a heavy flamer. Plus if you drop scourges down and then they pop something big, if your opponent is savvy they will get taken out.

Not that the heat lance is bad and if I was looking at playing a list with few vehicles and one nasty I might heat lance and drop them in but I want my dedicated anti tank to be reusable so to speak! Playstyle depending obviously, just doesn't toast my marshmallows!

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 11:15

I completely understand, it's one reason why the heat lance squad is the second squad I take, the first having haywire. I wouldn't just attach a wwp archon solely for that reason though - you need to take an HQ and it's perfectly workable to simply use them as a delivery unit for the scourges - zoom up a grot bodyguard in a raider and then when the archon arrives, he simply detaches from the sourges next turn and joins the grots, making a combat unit to threaten anything moving in on your scourges.

I have had perfectly competent opponents look at the shadowfield and simply decide to shoot at a different unit because of how good it is, thus saving my scourges without a shot fired.

It is dependant though, since actually the shadowfield is far better against better quality shooting - it's less effective against large quantities.

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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 12:40

Thanks for the replies! So it's looking to be a toss uo between blasters and heat lances! Being that I will be having a unitnof blasterborn, would that mean I'm better off taking heat lances? Or is is "the more, the merrier" with blasters?

Also, I see people talking about adding an Archon to the scourges with a wwp. But I'm confused as to how that would work? I was under the impression that the only way to deep strike an Archon is in a dedicated transport(either his or a unit he joins). If the jump infantry need no transport to deep strikez how can he join this unit and deep strike?
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 12:52

@nexs wrote:
Thanks for the replies! So it's looking to be a toss uo between blasters and heat lances! Being that I will be having a unitnof blasterborn, would that mean I'm better off taking heat lances? Or is is "the more, the merrier" with blasters?

Also, I see people talking about adding an Archon to the scourges with a wwp. But I'm confused as to how that would work? I was under the impression that the only way to deep strike an Archon is in a dedicated transport(either his or a unit he joins). If the jump infantry need no transport to deep strikez how can he join this unit and deep strike?

The webway portal allows him to deep strike

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 13:37

Anything with the Dark-Glance special rule needs as many as possible really! Also, don't count out the haywire, it really is a superb weapon when you find yourself against tough vehicles! Just laugh when you plink a landraider to death like it was a house fly!

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 20:23

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@nexs wrote:
Thanks for the replies! So it's looking to be a toss uo between blasters and heat lances! Being that I will be having a unitnof blasterborn, would that mean I'm better off taking heat lances? Or is is "the more, the merrier" with blasters?

Also, I see people talking about adding an Archon to the scourges with a wwp. But I'm confused as to how that would work? I was under the impression that the only way to deep strike an Archon is in a dedicated transport(either his or a unit he joins). If the jump infantry need no transport to deep strikez how can he join this unit and deep strike?

The webway portal allows him to deep strike
Amazing. Some of the rules in this book are hard to read and take a few times over for them to make sense!
Thanks for clearing it up! Smile
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Izathel
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Tue Jan 06 2015, 01:08

I think meta really is critical here. Haywires are much, much better against most superheavies. Not only can younot cripple them with immobilized or weapon destroyed results, but a number even ignore the melta and sometimes lance rules. They are also substantially better against Land Raiders and properly bubble wrapped AM parking lots.

However if your meta is all Tyranids all the time, or a footslogging terminator dance party, Blasters are insanely good.

I personally go Haywire because of my meta and the fact that I find Splinter fire drowns most things with a T value. I don't run Dark Lances anywhere though (dissies on gunboat Raiders) so I really need the anti tank.
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Tue Jan 06 2015, 01:22

@Izathel wrote:
I think meta really is critical here.  Haywires are much, much better against most superheavies.  Not only can younot cripple them with immobilized or weapon destroyed results, but a number even ignore the melta and sometimes lance rules.  They are also substantially better against Land Raiders and properly bubble wrapped AM parking lots.

However if your meta is all Tyranids all the time, or a footslogging terminator dance party, Blasters are insanely good.  

I personally go Haywire because of my meta and the fact that I find Splinter fire drowns most things with a T value.  I don't run Dark Lances anywhere though (dissies on gunboat Raiders) so I really need the anti tank.
I have 3 places I'd be playing on a regular basis. 2 semi local and one in the city(most players in the city tend to join in all the tourneys in the area). I'm not sure on the meta in either spot as I'm really new to 40k. I've had one game of 40k with a friend, at my house haha!

I have 2 units of scourges, so I plan to go with a unit of blasters and a unit of HWB. In addition to a blasterborn unit I plan to build, that should be enough to deal with tanks and heavily armoured troops, then let my troops take objectives and my archon and his (unpurchased as yet) bodyguard of incubi, I should have all bases covered.

That's the theory of a complete newbie. I'm sure that a few games will either solidify or destroy the theory!
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Izathel
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Tue Jan 06 2015, 23:02

I think with Incubi, Blasters are even less important since you have a stock of AP 2. With that said, if you never face Imperial Knights, other superheavies, or lots of AV12+, Haywire is of limited value.

I sort of think about it this way - Haywire is like Fleshbane for vehicles. STR 8 Lance is like Poisoned (4+). The bonus is really with ancillary purposes.

Is magnetizing an option? I'd say you might find 2x HWB Scourge units more useful. Especially with those Blasterborn.

Incidentally what does you Troop section look like? And are you running Reavers?
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Wed Jan 07 2015, 01:31

@Izathel wrote:
I think with Incubi, Blasters are even less important since you have a stock of AP 2.  With that said, if you never face Imperial Knights, other superheavies, or lots of AV12+, Haywire is of limited value.

I sort of think about it this way - Haywire is like Fleshbane for vehicles.  STR 8 Lance is like Poisoned (4+).  The bonus is really with ancillary purposes.

Is magnetizing an option?  I'd say you might find 2x HWB Scourge units more useful.  Especially with those Blasterborn.

Incidentally what does you Troop section look like?  And are you running Reavers?

At the moment, I'm looking at 2 units of 5 kabalites as troop minimum. I may consider branching out into wyches one day, but it seems that kabalites do from a distance what wyches do in combat, so it's not too important for me at the moment. In the near future (as the bank account allows) I'll get more kabalites.

Magnets, technically, isn't a problem. The problem lies in the availability of the actual HWB to put with the models. But the models are precarious enough already without adding magnets to the problem. I'd rather glue, however limiting it may be.

This is beginning to become more of an army list discussion... perhaps I should have this closed and open a new thread in army lists.... (I will do that)
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Wed Jan 07 2015, 02:03

Mods, this can be closed. Thanks

Continued here:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11248-first-army-list
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