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nexs
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PostSubject: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 04:37

Hi Everyone!
I've my first box of Scourges coming shortly and after I got the codex and had a look through my options, I'm still stuck! I also have very limited 40k knowledge, so I apologise for my newbieness.

It seems that alot of people like Haywire Blasters (as I assume they glance vehicles on a 4+, pen on a 6?). The Heat Lances seem to be popular too (I understand that meltas give you an extra d6 for the roll to pen). And then there's blasters with Lance and Str8.

I was wondering what people would suggest for a newbie like myself, how would I build my scourge unit? I'll end up harvesting friends bitzboxes/converting the missing weapons.


Thanks in advance!

P.S. I hope this is in the right subforum. Please relocate if i've got it wrong!
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Khalifeth Drakh
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 04:54

Honestly, it depends on (1) your meta and (2) your playstyle.

If your meta doesn't have a lot of vehicles, then that may make your choice relatively easy. The big problem that many players have with Haywire Blasters  is that they have nothing to do if your opponent has no vehicles or is vehicle light. Heat Lances can still nuke heavily armored foes. So they still serve some purpose other than objective grabbing.

As to playstyle, it comes down to you either firing anti-tank from range and shaving off hull points (HWB) or jumping in to melta range and blowing stuff up (HL). I happen to prefer HWB, but people do love melta.

I really wouldn't recommend taking Blasters on Scourge. Blasterborn (Trueborn with Blasters in a Venom) do it better.

Just my two cents,

Drakh.

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 05:01

Thanks!
I guess... I figure that in 40k everyone loves tanks because if you play fantasy, and not Empire, then you miss out on tanks.. So, TANKS AHOY!
Can HWB no shoot troops at all? In that case, would you then use them as blocking units or combat kamikaze units?

I plan to run 5 trueborn in a venom (Champ w/blast pistol, 3 Blasters and 1 Darklance), float about and blow tanks/heavy infantry up. Having that in mind, I'm still a bit lost in a sea of choices!
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 05:25

It's just S4 AP4 against infantry. I'd go Heat Lance unless you have a very vehicle heavy meta.
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 05:30

Well, they can shoot at troops, but their profile is rather weak for that - a single S4, AP4 shot isn't going to harm much. They're essentially more expensive Splinter Rifles with no rapid fire against most things (read: MEQ). I tend to use them as objective grabbers or late game assault units (though you must be very careful in your target selection; pick off that lone Farseer or diminished Command Squad).

Blasterborn are pure gold. But I would avoid the added Dracon with Blast Pistol and Dark Lance. The unit is very prone to dying so the cheaper you keep it, the better. That said, I usually run a Dracon for flavor in my fun games. He's the Archon's #2, so why not?

Edit: Ninja'd by JimSolo!

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 05:37

Thanks to both of you
I tend to be a bit of a fluffy player. So I like unit champions haha.
No DL? So, seeing that I've got one built, what should I do with it?

As far as the scourge goes, it looks like HL is the way to go! Thanks for that Smile
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 06:34

Just the arms or the whole guy? If you built the whole guy, take the arms off. If you just put the arms together, put them on a warrior and magnetize the barrel so you can use it as an optional blaster.
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 06:42

So the consensus is that the dark lance isn't that good? Better on the gunships?
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Epimetheus
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 08:09

Dark lance is wasted on trueborn since they are heavy 1 while the blasters are short range assault 1. They dont blend well
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 08:43

Hmmm fair enough! Consider it scrapped!
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 10:13

@nexs wrote:


It seems that alot of people like Haywire Blasters (as I assume they glance vehicles on a 4+, pen on a 6?). The Heat Lances seem to be popular too (I understand that meltas give you an extra d6 for the roll to pen). And then there's blasters with Lance and Str8.

Noooooooo. Haywire glances on a 2+ (!!!) and pens on a 6+

I go with Haywire blasters on Scourges everytime. They aren't the most defensible of models, so the 24" range, whilst still being able to jump 12" means they can still use cover to their advantage. There is also no other way to get hold of this many haywire shots. Dark light can come from many other facets.
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 11:49

Ooooh! Even better!
So, basically, you'll pick a tank target. They'll jump in, glance it to death and hope they make their points back?
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 12:27

I think the heat lance requires them to get too close. I'd rather have the range of the haywire blasters, despite their being less versatile.

I'd also rather consistently be able to glance vehicles to death, rather than occasionally blow them up immediately with a lucky roll.

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 12:38

Very good point. Hmmm
So, do you folks tend to take the solorite upgrade and kit him out, or just have another dude with a HWB?
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 15:21

I prefer haywire even vs tyr and Daemons. You have a fast sacrificable unit, a fast glass-wall against th enemy charge. With heatlances or blaster you lose this quality, for 1-2 wounds maybe on a MC.
In a all-round poisoned army.

Do it worth? Not to me.

Haywire, always haywire. Heatlances? I don't like deepstriking soo close at the enemy (and sometimes it is simply impossibile, think about Manticore surrounded by 50 guardsmen), and you are not sure to do something against the veichle (explosion at 5+..). Blasters? Not so good against veichles (again, explode at 6+), yes can do a wound against MC, but I don't found this gun so functionally as a lot of players says.

In VII, veichles doesn't explode: they become wrecked. Simply, is too hard to make explode a tank, way better strip all of his HP ad wreck it. Haywire do it. Close combat do it better.

Yes, you can think about silence one tank but...now?
You are possessed
or you can jink (so you will actually snap fire)
Or you're a rhino (unit disembark, and keeping shoot)

With a 360' mind, I prefere Haywire Blasters all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 20:30

@nexs wrote:
Very good point.  Hmmm
So, do you folks tend to take the solorite upgrade and kit him out, or just have another dude with a HWB?

God no. No leader, no upgrades. 120 points.
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 21:02

Cerve speaks a lot of truth, as does helstrom. I usually use HWB x 4 and the 5th scourge just sits in front to take the first hit.
Last game, I tried heatlance scourges, with another blast pistol solorite with a blast pistol/wwp archon to get them safely into position. I sent a venom filled with sslyth + succubus nearby to provide a distraction threat.
The aim was to kill a forgefiend without immediately losing the scourges to the backfield full of cultists, and it managed to immobilise it, and the scourges survived the game. I still think HWB plus the blasters would have been better, I somehow failed to glance a couple of times.
Don't send them anywhere alone, in my opinion. Don't get too caught up in "making their points back" - use them like ravagers are supposed to work. Pick a target you need dead, kill it, then do whatever is the most sensible. Dark Eldar don't do well at "getting their points back".

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Fri Jan 02 2015, 21:53

Thanks everyone for their (somewhat consistent) advice. I think I'll go for a unit full of HWB as suggested by so many.
Never leave them alone, provide distractions.
The game is still new to me with objectives and cover etc. But HWB scourges will be a good start! Thanks again!
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 05:01

reviving this one as i've come into possession of a second box of scourges.

a second unit of haywires seems somewhat redundant, perhaps a unit of dark lances for terminator killing? Perhaps even splinter cannons for troop clearing?
Thoughts?
Smile
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 06:59

I feel that the general consensus here is that Dark Lances are bad for Scourges, because they are heavy weapons and can only fire snap shots after moving.
So they don't mix well with the Scourges' rather good jump unit movement.
EDIT: Same goes to a for Splinter Cannons which are salvo and lose shots and ranges when the unit has moved.
I think those weapons are better on our vehicles which are Relentless and Fast.
A Venom with second Splinter Cannon can fire both optimal even after max speed.
And a Ravager can fire 3 disintegrators/Dark Lances with full ballistic skill after combat- and 2 after cruising-speed.

I hear Heat Lances are good for Deep Striking/Portal-ing close to Vehicles.
And Grub made a thread about Blaster Scourges (among others) working good vs Tau.

I have three teams 1 Haywire 1 Heat 1 Blaster team. Which are all assault weapons.
Haven't tried them out yet though.

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 10:08

Heat lances require you to drop in, which means that once they've done their first job, they get slaughtered by everything around them!
HWB means they can hop around at medium range, and take fewer risks.

Don't forget!
They "Take" their special guns, not "Exchange" them, so if they have no vehicle targets, only infantry, they still have their Shardcarbines! 15 Poison shots isn't bad!
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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 10:24

@commandersasha wrote:
Heat lances require you to drop in, which means that once they've done their first job, they get slaughtered by everything around them!
HWB means they can hop around at medium range, and take fewer risks.

Don't forget!
They "Take" their special guns, not "Exchange" them, so if they have no vehicle targets, only infantry, they still have their Shardcarbines! 15 Poison shots isn't bad!

Sadly this isn't the case - it seems that way when you read the unit's datasheet but when you go to the armoury section, special weapons are exchanged for the standard ranged weapon.

With respect to the second box - I'd go Heat Lances there - they are still very useful at taking down things like bikes and 2+ armoured stuff, but couple them with an archon/shadowfield/wwp and you've got a precision stirke that will usually kill whatever vehicle they are pointing at (unless like me you can fail three armour penetration rolls in a row against AV10!)

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 10:24

Blaster being superior weapon to heat lance, me think.

Haywire is usefull, but have drawback of being specialized.

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 10:31

Just to echo:
Heat lances are great, if you have a unit that is super mobile and fairly durable. Scourges are not super mobile (good but not reaver good) and go down very easy. I don't want to suicide these guys which is why I would go haywire or blaster. Haywire obviously is great for just dousing vehicles but is limited to that really. Or for 20 more points stick blasters on scourges. Perhaps not as effective at taking down heavy stuff but more versatile then haywire and far less risky then heat lances. If only heat lances etc could be taken on warrior units :'(

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PostSubject: Re: haywire vs heat vs blaster   Mon Jan 05 2015, 10:37

Heat Lances aren't a suicide unit if you a) support them properly by threatening nearby units to their target, b) place the shadowfield archon correctly to give them a 2++ form incoming fire, and c) place the unit appropriately to provide cover from incoming fire.

Alternatively, for 120pts they actually function pretty well as a suicide unit, as there aren't many vehicles that cost less than this (ours excepted) that are so important they need to die quickly (wyverns yes, but if they're in a squadron you can spill damage over to other vehicles anyway)

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