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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Flesh Gauntlet   Thu Jan 01 2015, 15:56

Anyone use Flesh Gauntlet on their Haemonculus?

Any value to using it with (or in place of) Scissorhands?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Thu Jan 01 2015, 16:14

I don't and also do not think there is an advantage for it compared to Scissorhands.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Thu Jan 01 2015, 16:54

@Thor665 wrote:
I don't and also do not think there is an advantage for it compared to Scissorhands.

This.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Thu Jan 01 2015, 20:40

Agoniser every time for me. We have access to so much AP2 shooting, why bother struggling with a tiny chance of an AP2 attack in CC? Just cut through marines instead Smile
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Thu Jan 01 2015, 21:09

@Hellstrom wrote:
Agoniser every time for me.  We have access to so much AP2 shooting, why bother struggling with a tiny chance of an AP2 attack in CC?  Just cut through marines instead Smile

Well, for a start, cost. Those rending attacks cost just 2/5 of an Agoniser.

Second, marines are easy to kill with massed fire or AP2 anyway. Why would I want to bother with AP3 at all?
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 00:41

You are only applying 1.68 wounds on the charge.  1.34 if you don't get the bonus attack.  The chance of rending is low.  Therefore paying 15 points extra to provide AP3 at least means you are killing a marine every fight phase, rather than doing nothing.  If you are desperate for the 15 points, I understand it's not a terrible place to get them from, but I still feel, that generally it's the most useful upgrade.

Saying that, I suppose a sensible argument against my own self (lol) is that you could save the 15 points and give someone a blaster for the same 15 and get yourself a more powerful single attack. Maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 02:06

@Hellstrom wrote:
Agoniser every time for me.  We have access to so much AP2 shooting, why bother struggling with a tiny chance of an AP2 attack in CC?  Just cut through marines instead Smile
I see what you are arguing here, but I rather disagree with it.

The "conventional" Grot build is the 4 w. one of them being an Aberration.
I think we can all agree that Grots go through GEQ like a hot knife through butter, but that they slow down a bit versus better armor saves.

Let's crunch the numbers (I am presuming 2 attacks from Rampage and a charge in all of these);

Grots w. Scissor Abber (18 regular attacks and 7 Scissorhands)

vs. MEQ - 4.04 dead
vs. TEQ - 2.275 dead

Grots w. Aggie Abber (18 regular attacks and 7 Aggie)

vs. MEQ - 5.76 dead
vs. TEQ - 1.85 dead


So - when I look at that what I see is the following. I can pay an extra 15 points (which is a Blaster on one of my units, an upgrade I rather value Wink ) in order to get an additional 1-2 dead Marines in the assault. Also, I kill about one Terminator less in the assault. So, i can save points and be better at killing Terminators, or I can spend points and be better at killing Marines.

I, personally, think Grots kill Marines pretty well.
What I fear for my Grots is getting caught by Hammernators or, worse, Nemesis packing Paladins or something - I want as many of those dead as possible if I have to fight them, and I don't want to let my core assault unit get bogged down batting at Termies or Centurions or the ilk if I want them dead.

As a result, I do not find the Aggie a valuable upgrade.
I don't think it's 'bad' I just think all it does is make the unit a bit better at what it already can do, as opposed to protecting me from a weakness of the unit - and since I like to be able to lob my Grots at anything that I remotely consider a threat, I find the viability of Rend far more useful than the need for AP 3.

Especially when my AP 2 shooting is mostly needed to kill vehicles. Sure, by the time it's round 4 or so I probably have shots to spare - but if I need the Termies stopped asap, I don't want to have to sacrifice shooting for the attempt.

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 02:39

I thought this was about Haemonculi.
Do you think the same logic applies?

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 03:40

That's funny - I forgot the original post purpose and was just following new post links and in seeing Aggie v. Scissor just figured it was about Grots.

Frankly, I still don't really like the Aggie on the Haem simply because...well, I barely like any weapon upgrade on them, and would generally take the scissorhand first. That all said - weapon selection for the Haem starts to depend on what he's attached to. Usually mine are attached to Grots (in which case scissorhand) or is part of Dark Artisan (in which case I'm undecided, but do favor Scissorhand as I want him to have some bite, but don't want to pay much more into the unit - and usually I just refuse challenges anyway, so why pay for a weapon upgrade to someone I want hiding behind a Talos?).

So, I guess, at the core - yeah, I think the same logic tends to apply. The value of the Scissorhand rends is pretty darn good for the cost, and the boost of the Aggie is very situational.

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 04:37

I don't think an Agonizer Haemonculus will make much difference in a fight with MEQ. Just quickly, off the top of my head, isn't it something like 0.88 (not counting the possibility of rending) vs 1.3 wounds? So yes, Hellstrom is correct in saying that at least the Haemy is generating a wound, but is it worth the points? Chances are you won't need that extra wound if he's stuck in with Grots or a Talos/Cronos.

And to answer the OP's question, I also use a Scissorhand. Have never tried the Gauntlet, but I don't particularly see the need to either.

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 06:36

I used to use gauntlets, switched to scissorhands. The agonizer just isn't worth the cost to me. Although I too assumed it was a Haemmy in a Coven unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 10:05

I only use a Haemy in the DA formation, so my opinion is based pretty much purely on this setup to be honest. The problem I've had, is that I pretty much ALWAYS get challenged. With an agoniser, I can accept the challenge (assuming AV3 on the opponent), with a Scissorhand, I wouldn't want to.

Just to pop the maths on this one on one situation, as Thor has started the trend Smile

I am also presuming 2 attacks from Rampage (Sump) and a charge in all of these.

With Agoniser:

vs. MEQ - 2.35 dead
vs. TEQ - 0.39 dead

With Scissor:

vs. MEQ - 1.3 dead
vs. TEQ - 1.04 dead


Adding to this, I'd be extremely unlikely to actually accept a challenge with either weapon if the challenger was TEQ.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 10:22

@Jimsolo wrote:
I used to use gauntlets, switched to scissorhands.  The agonizer just isn't worth the cost to me.  Although I too assumed it was a Haemmy in a Coven unit.

I was indeed thinking of a Haemonculus in a coven unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 15:17

@Hellstrom wrote:
I only use a Haemy in the DA formation, so my opinion is based pretty much purely on this setup to be honest.  The problem I've had, is that I pretty much ALWAYS get challenged.  With an agoniser, I can accept the challenge (assuming AV3 on the opponent), with a Scissorhand, I wouldn't want to.
But you're T7 counting as T4 for ID though - which means either you're going to be perfectly okay with the challenge or that you should want absolutely nothing to do with it. What type of weapon you have doesn't much matter to the question, to my mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 15:23

@Thor665 wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
I only use a Haemy in the DA formation, so my opinion is based pretty much purely on this setup to be honest.  The problem I've had, is that I pretty much ALWAYS get challenged.  With an agoniser, I can accept the challenge (assuming AV3 on the opponent), with a Scissorhand, I wouldn't want to.
But you're T7 counting as T4 for ID though - which means either you're going to be perfectly okay with the challenge or that you should want absolutely nothing to do with it. What type of weapon you have doesn't much matter to the question, to my mind.

But, if you're in a challenge, don't you revert to T4?
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 15:52

yes
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 20:54

As far as I'm concerned, the Flesh Gauntlet is more of a troll weapon than anything else. Annoying at best, useless at worst.

But has anyone here tried using it on an Aberration instead of a Haemy?


Last edited by Rokuro on Sat Jan 03 2015, 08:46; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Fri Jan 02 2015, 22:44

@Rokuro wrote:
But has anyone here tried using it on an Aberration instead of a Haemy?

Well, since it comes standard, yes. Wink

I tend to favour scissorhands, but if I'm up against Nobz or other multiple-wound units/characters then I'll switch to the Gauntlet.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 08:46

@The Shredder wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
But has anyone here tried using it on an Aberration instead of a Haemy?

Well, since it comes standard, yes. Wink

Forget everything I said.
I got the names wrong again and thought this was about the Mindphase Gauntlet.

I'm leaving now. There is no excuse for failure.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 11:12

@Rokuro wrote:

I got the names wrong again and thought this was about the Mindphase Gauntlet.

Ah, in that case, no. I have never used the Mindphase Gauntlet on a Haemonculus, Acothyst or Aberration and never will.

I'd sooner leave 5pts unspent than buy a Mindphase gauntlet for one of my models.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 16:08

@The Shredder wrote:
I'd sooner leave 5pts unspent than buy a Mindphase gauntlet for one of my models.
Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 16:43

Yeah. Barring some unforeseen competitive requirements that make it good, Mindphase Gauntlets are a 'never take.'
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 16:51

I'm really disappointed with several of our weapons getting 'Concussive'. I get that they want to remove lots of different abilities (because who wants flavour anyway?), but why Concussive of all things?

It's not even remotely flavourful and it's certainly not useful. Might as well have just removed those weapons and replaced them with a picture of the design team mooning us. It amounts to the same thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 17:34

Nah, the picture would have been more interesting for longer.

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PostSubject: Re: Flesh Gauntlet   Sat Jan 03 2015, 20:06

@The Shredder wrote:

But, if you're in a challenge, don't you revert to T4?

why would you revert to T4? Is there a rules reference for this? My understanding is that you're still part of the unit & thus benefit from the UNIT's majority toughness - my understanding is that the only "change" is that you only count as being in B2B with the challenger, unless all other models are removed from the combat...
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