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 Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges

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Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges
3x Dark Lance Ravager
21%
 21% [ 12 ]
4x Haywire Scourge squad
23%
 23% [ 13 ]
Both !!
50%
 50% [ 28 ]
Neither .. I use something else
5%
 5% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 56
 

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 22:49

I see both of these units as primarily anti-tank, but obviously both have a secondary, granted much weaker use, as instant death (Ravager) or small troop tidyup shooters.

As the title suggests.  Which do you guys prefer and why?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:25

Currently, I'm undecided. I'm trying both, but leaning towards the Ravager for a few reasons:

- Range. Neither the Ravager nor the Scourges are survivable, but with 36" dark lances, the former can often fire from far back (preferably obscured by a terrain piece) and avoid exposing itself too much. Scourges, on the other hand, have to come pretty close to the enemy to fire - and are very unlikely to survive a return volley. Plus, if they want to make use of cover, then they'll frequently be taking dangerous terrain tests.

- Utility. S8 AP2 is useful against a lot of targets - MCs, Elite Infantry and so on. S4 AP4 is virtually worthless if your opponent isn't using vehicles (or when they've all been destroyed).

- Track Record. I'm well aware of the math, but at the same time my haywire blasters just don't seem to do anything - it always seems to be my dark lances and blasters that have to pick up the slack and blow vehicles apart. Perhaps this will change at some point, but so far I'm definitely leaning towards Dark Lances over Scourges.

Though, I might also try attaching a WWP to some Heat-Lance scourges and see how that works out.
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:32

Trueborn in a raider

Relatively cheap with enough dakka to kill just about anything
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:37

@Grimcrimm wrote:
Trueborn in a raider

Relatively cheap with enough dakka to kill just about anything

Yeah, I like those too. I was considering replacing them with Scourges... but then in my first game scourges did naff-all, whilst my Blasterborn squads ploughed their way through a Librarian Dreadnaught, a squad of Death Company and Seth.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:38

I use both - that said I voted Ravager because I field 3x Ravagers and 1x Scourge, so...

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Javorra
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:39

I usually field both, 2 ravagers and 1/2 scourges at 1500.
I prefer ravagers on the field T1, as they are easier to redeploy if needed, and scourges for DS, not being affected by the direction you place them if scattering.
I'm not goin to add a wwp with HL, in that case I just use fire dragons, much more reliable and with the possibility to jump on a raider for more survivability, also from the vehicle explosion, or blasterborn if playing full DE


Last edited by Javorra on Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:44; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Tue Dec 30 2014, 23:42

I struggle with all forms of DE AT...it's frustrating...I don't own any ravagers but my luck with lances is poor. I like assaulting tanks to kill generally. I'm currently experimenting with 2 5 man haywire scourge squads and at least their presence forces my opponent to change tactics...despite my inability to hit in the first place.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 00:06

I like them both. I tend to field Ravagers more only because I have more heavy slots free.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 00:31

Trueborn in a raider aren't even an option for me anymore. Ignoring the impossibility of actually finding enough blasters, for the cost of a WWP Blasterborn raider, you can get 2x Triple Lance Ravagers .... Why would you bother? More shots over more turns.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 00:36

The Trueborn can Jink and still fire at full BS, which the Ravagers couldn't. (But I actually agree with you.) If I take Blasterborn, it's in a Venom with no WWP.

(Side note: if you magnetize the barrel from a Dark Lance, you can make a thicker, blunderbuss-looking blaster, if you are having trouble finding them.)
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Siegfried VII
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 01:11

I currently use 4 units of full haywire blaster Scourges and they haven't let me down so far. As for Ravagers I do not own any of them so I can't make some serious testing, but I find the 2+ of the haywire blaster much much better odds than the usual 4+ of dark lances. Sure they have a chance to get a vehicle blown but it is slim.

Granted they can be more usefull for instant death shots or ap2 shots on infantry, but so far I make do with sheer volume of poison from my other units...

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 03:43

@Hellstrom wrote:
Trueborn in a raider aren't even an option for me anymore. Ignoring the impossibility of actually finding enough blasters, for the cost of a WWP Blasterborn raider, you can get 2x Triple Lance Ravagers .... Why would you bother? More shots over more turns.



If you have to jink a ravager its nearly worthless trueborn dont have this problem

Ravager 3 darklances 125 points

Trueborn 2 darklances in a raider 160

35 poin tax that says if have to jink (and you will) you can still fire 2 darklances at full ballistic skill
and assuming you didnt jink same firepower and the ability to fire at a different target assuming you kill the enemy with one volley
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 05:29

Answered both. Both fill a primary role but the Ravager has better Anti-MC/T4 Character killing power than S4 AP4 Haywire Blaster.

But If I don't have any juicy targets for the Scourge, they are pretty much my obj grabbers

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 08:33

@1++ wrote:
But If I don't have any juicy targets for the Scourge, they are pretty much my obj grabbers
This is a good point and actually puts into very succinct words my prime issue with Haywire Scourges.

I have had multiple games where my Scourges are just objective grabbers.
I've never had an issue finding targets for my Ravagers - which shoot until they are blown from the sky.

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 08:52

It is very annoying when you bring haywire scourges to an infantry game. They do give a nice punt to our standard dark-glance abilities but just aren't that versatile. I've actually been trialing scourges with blasters and they are doing ok. Its just another case of spamming lance weapons and hoping one will ho through. But it also gives a bit of versatility for when you need to take out crisis suits, terminators etc that haywire cant do. But when you get one glance on a obj-sec land raider from 4 hits your gonna miss that haywire.

That being said I still like the ravager for main anti tank, its got that range, can make good use of cover to make it really survivable compared to scourges and its never not got a target!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 09:36

I think Scourges have their place - but I do wince when I see people spam them. I think they are appropriate as a dash of flavor. They cannot replicate what a dark lance does though.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 10:21

By the sounds of it, the general consensus is take both basically. Have to say, I absolutely love taking 1 Dissie Ravager. I take one in every game since 6th. That has left me, in the majority of my lists with 2 Lance Ravagers and 2 units of Haywire Scourges. I then use the Dark Artisan formation as my backup anti-tank when arriving from DS if needed.

I remember very few games when my 2 units of Scourges haven't done extremely well. They obviously have a much higher chance of getting rid of vehicles than Lances and even once the tanks have gone, actually having some AP4 has been useful. Then end game, they are great objective grabbers, as Thor said.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 12:21

Don't forget that those Scourges TAKE their special guns, not REPLACE WITH, so if they have no armour targets, they can fire 3 poisoned shots each at 18".

A squad of 5 gets 15 poison shots, that's not bad!
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 12:54

@commandersasha wrote:
Don't forget that those Scourges TAKE their special guns, not REPLACE WITH, so if they have no armour targets, they can fire 3 poisoned shots each at 18".

Nope, they still have to replace their guns.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 15:22

Agreed - on the wargear list it is quite explicitly a replace.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 23:08

It really depends on the situation. Sometimes Ravagers are better and sometimes Scourges are. But unless you know exactly what you'll be fighting and under what conditions (terrain, deployment, ect.), taking only one option is likely to result in a disadvantage on your side.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 23:26

Outside of super heavies, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where haywire weaponry is superior to lances.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 23:32

@Thor665 wrote:
Outside of super heavies, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where haywire weaponry is superior to lances.

When you want to keep your distance? I run into some situations where I'd like to avoid getting within 9" of the enemy.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Wed Dec 31 2014, 23:42

@Thor665 wrote:
Outside of super heavies, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where haywire weaponry is superior to lances.

The big difference is not so much in the weapon as it is in the carrier - and if you rather want to shoot the enemy in the face or in the back.
Scourges are the more sneaky option. They can more effectively move through cover and get close to the enemy at a lower risk than a Ravager. They can take Blasters, but those have a lower range than Haywire Blasters. And Void Lances are hardly a viable option for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges   Thu Jan 01 2015, 01:42

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
Outside of super heavies, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where haywire weaponry is superior to lances.

When you want to keep your distance?  I run into some situations where I'd like to avoid getting within 9" of the enemy.  
I'm talking dark lances, not heat lances. You don't need to sell me on the idea that a haywire blaster is better than a heat lance barring WWP use.

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