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 Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked

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Ciirian
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sat Feb 21 2015, 21:16

WOW its alot bigger. Thanks for the pic
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 02:56

The formations are kind of weird in that they are really restricting. Instead of giving us cool new options like the ones in the coven supplement (haemie/talos/chronos for example), they have given us a puzzle that never feels right.
Want to take a troupe with characters? Wont fit in a transport.
Want to field a Solitaire? Fit in a lone Jester too and pay 300 pts.
Want to play a single troupe in a transport? No characters allowed.
Want to play a bit of everything? Paint three troupes.

I think Ill end up going for the standard harlequin detachment (no formation) taking three troupes, transports as fast attack, the mandatory weaver and a bunch of shadowseers and a solitair.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 05:20

The Starweaver could be easily converted to stand out as an IC's Venom... so many ideas

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 07:35

Skyweavers got haywire and mirage launchers. 2 wounds also means that while reavers lose effectiveness with each casualty, they do not. They also have fear which increases their survivability in CC.

Still, I agree, I would rather have reavers. Although I would prefer just cluster caltrops, not heat lances or blasters.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 07:58

@Cavash wrote:
The Starweaver could be easily converted to stand out as an IC's Venom... so many ideas

I was thinking the same thing Cavash - just magnetise all the guns so you can field it as you wish.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 09:17

@Mngwa wrote:
Skyweavers got haywire and mirage launchers. 2 wounds also means that while reavers lose effectiveness with each casualty, they do not. They also have fear which increases their survivability in CC.

Still, I agree, I would rather have reavers. Although I would prefer just cluster caltrops, not heat lances or blasters.

Skyweavers don't seem to be made for close combat. Rather see them as an elite version of Windriders: Each one can have a Shuriken Cannon and a short-ranged anti-TEQ missile on top.
The Zephyr Glaives are not enough to make them a good assault unit. And I'd rather rely on the Voidweaver's S7 lance than sacrifice jinking for small-template haywire weapon that won't hit more than one vehicle anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 10:40

The glaives make them insanely good assault units when taken in 4-6 models!

4 Attacks at WS5, S5, AP2 with I6 is fantastic on a fast platform. The grenades thing is the only issue but the DJ seems purpose built to sort that out. 4 of them will maul most units into dust in 2 rounds of combat max and 6 will see them 1 turn even large meq or teq units.

As for hitting more than 1 vehicle with the haywire blaster - that's not the point. 3 of them should almost always get 3 hits on a vehicle which is most cases should be a dead vehicle.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 12:21

@Massaen wrote:
As for hitting more than 1 vehicle with the haywire blaster - that's not the point.

It is the point for me though. What is the purpose of a small blast haywire weapon on a platform that will often need to jink to survive and therefore be unable to use it? Small blasts are less accurate than a single shot unless you are targeting a very large vehicle. They're pointless against infantry (seriously, who thought a 1.5" radius weapon was a good idea in a game that allows models to be 2" apart?). They're not twin-linked either so even if you could fire them against flyers they would still be crap. Haywire cannons are simply terrible weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 12:30

You can always take normal cover saves instead of jinking or rely on your 5++ or your one time 4++ vs shooting if you really need it.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 12:33

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
As for hitting more than 1 vehicle with the haywire blaster - that's not the point.

It is the point for me though. What is the purpose of a small blast haywire weapon on a platform that will often need to jink to survive and therefore be unable to use it? Small blasts are less accurate than a single shot unless you are targeting a very large vehicle. They're pointless against infantry (seriously, who thought a 1.5" radius weapon was a good idea in a game that allows models to be 2" apart?). They're not twin-linked either so even if you could fire them against flyers they would still be crap. Haywire cannons are simply terrible weapons.

Fair enough Count - but I don't think its a factor. The thing is, you just need to clip a tank and as long as you centre the blast I would suspect you should be hitting all but the smallest of vehicles with them - a BS4 means your average scatter is only 3 inches afterall!

The harlies don't need infantry killing weapons either - they NEED AT shots and the haywire is by far the most reliable way to do it without allies

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 14:03

But at that point, you're just "settling" for the best option available to them if you go pure harlequins. That doesn't make the haywire cannon a good weapon.

Maybe I'm just always seeing this from an allies factor, since I don't intend on ever running pure harlequins. All I know is that if I take a Masque detachment with my realspace raiders detachment I will always be upgrading the haywire cannon on the mandatory voidweaver to that prismatic cannon - it provides a lot more flexibility and scourges are there for the haywire shots.

The voidweaver unfortunately will always be a tax for me, so I'm just trying to make it at least benefit me in some small way. Starweavers are actually not too bad, a bit more expensive than a venom but they average roughly the same wounds on GEQ and MEQ, with the starweaver potentially getting ap2 shots.

Both are the same toughness really (though the starweaver gets 4+ inv once per game).

On a side note, has anyone thought of running a shadowseer with some haywire scourges? Granted she'd slow them down a bit, but their game is at 24" and with veil of tears - they could make a potent tank killing combo without the scourges putting themselves in harms way all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 20:02

@Caldria wrote:

On a side note, has anyone thought of running a shadowseer with some haywire scourges? Granted she'd slow them down a bit, but their game is at 24" and with veil of tears - they could make a potent tank killing combo without the scourges putting themselves in harms way all the time.

Nice idea! It's a shame we can't try it with the Way of Heroes formation.

I really want to try the Death Jester. Pinning seems really useful with all our Ld debuffs.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Sun Feb 22 2015, 20:44

Yeah, the crazy thing is - the new harlequins add so much to help wyches get to their targets, Veil of Tears, that shrouding and stealth power, pinning their target so no overwatch etc. Yet even with all that help wyches still wont do much, it's sad Sad

But on another note, it helps Incubi a ton too, especially their no grenades issue. As well as keeping them alive via the psychic powers when they're not in combat, and the Incubi we at least know can hit hard.

However, may as well just rely on the harlequin squad to do the assaulting, but then again the shadowseers powers only help against shooting. while in combat the Incubi at least have a 3+ and will get FnP.

So many potential combos with these harlies and our DE - I'm so excited. However, to be able to use the harlies with more freedom we have to go with the Masque detachment. That means the voidweaver tax and maybe more troupes than we might want. But this at least gives us the starweavers which are decent like our venoms and then the freedom to do what we want with the Shadowseers, Death Jesters and Solitaires.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 06:26

@Caldria wrote:
Yeah, the crazy thing is - the new harlequins add so much to help wyches get to their targets, Veil of Tears, that shrouding and stealth power, pinning their target so no overwatch etc. Yet even with all that help wyches still wont do much, it's sad Sad

Two my opponent from yesterday`s tornament totaly disagree with you Razz
Wyches did a lot

P.S. but it`s sad, when u take Helm of spite and Culexus in your army and meet only one psyker Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 12:54

It is also pretty cool that the troupe master is 2 wounds.
I have been thinking of running a troupe with the shadowseer and death jester and just keep the troupe master in front at all times... if he dies on overwatch, it is better than losing 2 other players.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 13:00

@Devilogical wrote:
Two my opponent from yesterday`s tornament totaly disagree with you Razz
Wyches did a lot

I'd love to know how you ran them xD

I believe there's an upgrade for the troupe master to give him 3 wounds, more initiative/ws/bs etc. Great Harlequin upgrade - I don't know if that was real or not, I can't seem to find it now.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 13:00

Having read through the codex (quickly) I'm actually disappointed. I'd love to add in a few Harlequins to my Eldar/Dark Eldar forces but none of the formations allow me to take the models I want to take unless I add in a load of other stuff that I don't want.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 14:11

It is very limiting in the way its built for vets... for newbies or less competitive minded players I can see table time with everything

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 14:13

Argh. Maybe if enough of us complain they'll release a supplement, or at least a datasheet or something. Maybe a datasheet specifically for Craftworld and Dark Eldar forces to use some smaller units.

I wonder if they are just really trying to force us to use them Unbound. There is a certain fluffy logic that Harlequins would be random and unorganized unless mustered in greater numbers for some dire battle.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 14:23

All they needed to do was add an HQ choice. That way, if you don't like the formations or detachments that are in the book you can still use a CAD or Allied Detachment.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 14:29

Yeah, it's pretty baffling that they didn't. Even if they didn't want to make another mini like a Great Harlequin, they could have just made the Shadowseer HQ. And it would be nice if the Death Jester was Heavy so the only choice wasn't the Voidweaver. Reassigning those two guys would solve everything, wouldn't it?

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 16:02

Just ran my first game with em using 3x 5 troupes in venoms, 2x2 jetbikes and a single prismcannon HS alongside a solitaire; must say I'm horribly underwhelmed. Fear is useless (was playing against tau but not even he failed a single one, not that it'd have mattered), they are waaaaaay too squishy; and my solitaire failed 3 out of 5 wounds by overwatch....

Gonna wait till shadowseer models come round and give it another try, but damn the restrictiveness stopping me from doing anything competitive Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 16:11

@Anterzhul wrote:
Just ran my first game with em using 3x 5 troupes in venoms, 2x2 jetbikes and a single prismcannon HS alongside a solitaire; must say I'm horribly underwhelmed. Fear is useless (was playing against tau but not even he failed a single one, not that it'd have mattered), they are waaaaaay too squishy; and my solitaire failed 3 out of 5 wounds by overwatch....

Gonna wait till shadowseer models come round and give it another try, but damn the restrictiveness stopping me from doing anything competitive Sad

Sounds like possibly one of their worst matchups though, Tau of almost any kind tend to have an advantage due to the high quantity of mid strength ignores cover shots they can throw the way of their opponents. Which is just the sort of thing that T3 models and transports that rely on jink can't deal with.

Yes, it's still disappointing that they haven't addressed that in some way though.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 16:14

Why not try 2 starweavers instead of the 2 units of jetbikes, less of a tax. The starweavers average around the same number of wounds as our venoms against GEQ and MEQ, and even have a chance to get ap2 - they can also hurt light vehicles and are as survivable as our venoms and more so for one turn.

You'll have less units you don't want forced on you. I just dont think I'd ever take the skyweavers when we have our awesome reavers.

I'm interested in how the prismweaver performed?
Also once you get a shadowseer or 3 popping Veil of Tears in places, I reckon they will become a lot less easily killed. Tau's ignores cover shots don't mean a thing when they are out of 24" range, or if they roll badly on the Veil's distance roll.

Pity about the solitaire - maybe try him from the way of heroes formation, so you give him infiltrate, stealth and shrouded.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequins release in early 2015? - February 3, Skyweaver jetbike rules leaked   Mon Feb 23 2015, 16:39

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Sounds like possibly one of their worst matchups though, Tau of almost any kind tend to have an advantage due to the high quantity of mid strength ignores cover shots they can throw the way of their opponents. Which is just the sort of thing that T3 models and transports that rely on jink can't deal with.

Yes, it's still disappointing that they haven't addressed that in some way though.

Yeah, well at least the harlequins get to pop the 4++ once per game to mitigate the ignores cover somewhat, and pathfinders love to die to venom shots; their combat prowess is also largely wasted on the crappy CC of tau models (Except some HQs, which for some unexplicable reason have a ton of attacks and decent WS :S)
Usually I just punch his fortress in the face using Dark artisan and Grots, but the grots decided to fail their reserve rolls even though I had Labyrinthe Cunning Sad

@Caldria wrote:
Why not try 2 starweavers instead of the 2 units of jetbikes, less of a tax. The starweavers average around the same number of wounds as our venoms against GEQ and MEQ, and even have a chance to get ap2 - they can also hurt light vehicles and are as survivable as our venoms and more so for one turn.

You'll have less units you don't want forced on you. I just dont think I'd ever take the skyweavers when we have our awesome reavers.

I'm interested in how the prismweaver performed?
Also once you get a shadowseer or 3 popping Veil of Tears in places, I reckon they will become a lot less easily killed. Tau's ignores cover shots don't mean a thing when they are out of 24" range, or if they roll badly on the Veil's distance roll.

Pity about the solitaire - maybe try him from the way of heroes formation, so you give him infiltrate, stealth and shrouded.

Don't have enough of the models in yet to fully spam starweavers (Being a poor student is tough), but I also really wanted to try the bikes because they look so damn cool (But yeah, so do reavers and they are miles better)

Prismweaver sadly didn't perform at all, it got slapped with some longrange tau missile nonsense and decided to fail all the 4++'s

As for the way of heroes, I doubt infiltrate or stealth/shrouded will help a lot against Tau, because like this I had the run + charge, so pretty much guaranteed turn 2 charge, and the cover only works out if there happens to conveniently be a piece of terrain in front of the Tau gunline.

I really think a solitaire would benefit greatly from farseer support, imagine that going about with fortune slapped on Shocked

Finally, I think I played them wrong, It'd probably have been better to pick off a bit more of the gunline before charging in. Also, my grots showing up would've done wonders; not even tau are going to destroy a dark artisan formation and a full unit of grots in a single turn, unless they get really lucky

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