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 Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 04:14

Incubi are one of those units who have a reputation.

The first time someone faces incubi there is always that same face of shock and awe as you outline their obscene stats. Weapon skill 5 means 3’s to hit. 3 attacks each on the charge. Strength 4 and AP2 at initiative 5. Backed up with fleet and a 3+ save. Scary stuff.

They do have weaknesses though. They can be pricey and lack grenades to attack with their cool initiative if you need to go for enemy in cover.

Most of the thoughts behind incubi on the net suggest 4-6 models with 7 being the max and 5 the norm (or 4 plus archon but we will get to that). The main theory is that you charge your 5 men into the enemy kill half, stay locked in combat and then break/wipe them the following phase.

Thing is – its my opinion that the internet has it all wrong.

First, lets look at the stats. Statistically, Incubi will kill 1 MEQ per incubi on the charge (3 attacks hitting on 3’s = 2 hits. S4 vs T4 is 4’s to wound = 1 wound with a power weapon). Excellent stuff. That said, what happens when they get hit back?

In a real scenario we know the 5 incubi will kill 5 marines on average rolls so taking the ‘stay in combat’ route we would charge 8-10 model squads. Given MEQ units typically don’t get their cool toys until 10 models, this is the target. 10 tactical marines with power fist sarge, melta gun & missile launcher. The all rounder of marines.

5 Incubi Charge, 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 5 kills thanks to AP2
4 marines fight back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 kills
Power fist sarge fights, 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, 0.83 kills thanks to the power fist and AP2

So the incubi win combat by around 4 (loosing one of their number in the process). They have effective LD 5 at this stage so odds are in favour they will fail and then you will sweep them triggering ATSKNF which turns the sweep into no retreat and you stay locked.

Round 2 of combat now and its 4 incubi vs 5 marines. Incubi strike for 8 attacks bagging 2.6 kills. Even rounding this up to 3 dead marines the fist sarge will more than likely take another incubi with him. You are still locked in combat with the remaining marines who will likely die in the next turn but its YOUR turn and you are exposed in the enemies which is what we are trying to avoid!

So 100ish pts of incubi have bagged 200isg pts of tactical marines! Hazzah! But let’s look at the incubi unit that we have left. 3 models is really no threat to any but the most weakened of enemy units and is likely to be wiped out if they charge a full strength one. So its either dive for cover at which point they contribute nothing or thrown them into a combat they cannot win and take some of the enemy with you. So we got one effective charge and they are done.

Now what happens if we went with a 10 man squad. On the charge we will now wipe the tactical marines for no losses on average rolls (30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds). At this stage we have our 200ish point having taken out a 200ish pt enemy unit so it’s a good win for us but of course now we are going to get shot at.

A lot.

We have assault troops on crack and the enemy has just seen them mince a unit without trying. He needs those dead now. Thing is, even if he half kills the squad, they still have the ability to take out another MEQ squad before becoming combat ineffective. With a good consolidate and position you should also get cover with some luck. Even without it, the FNP incubi are durable as heck. It takes around 14 bolter shots to get 1 FNP incubi. So a 10 man squad in rapid fire range lights the incubi up with a melta gun, frag missile (4 hits) and 15 bolter shots. That volley will manage just fewer than 3 kills. 7 incubi will be more than enough to take them out and still have 5-6 left over after the inevitable fist sarge kills one. My 200ish point unit has soaked fire and is now just as dangerous as a larger unit. If the enemy points more guns at them prior to the charge (say 10 more marines) I will still more than likely have a combat effective unit of 4-6 models. Plus I have taken 600 points of the enemy out of the game for a turn at minimum.

What about getting charged? No one is dumb enough to charge incubi unless they have to. 10 incubi will manage 6-7 kills while the 5 is only 3-4. I guarantee the 10 man squad is effective when it walks out of the combat. The 5 man may not get out at all.

Even cover becomes less of an issue with 10 models.

Its generally agreed that you need assault grenades to be effective in assaulting cover.
Charging cover with 10 marines defending.
With the 10 man unit and no grenades…

9 marines manage 1 kill after saves and the fist accounts for another. So 2 losses. My 8 remaining incubi will kill 8 marines on average so I win by 6. I will probably stay locked in combat and kill them in the enemy turn at which point I wipe them out. I am in cover with FNP for the enemy shooting phase.
As you can see, this gives the least amount of chances for the enemy to bail the embattled unit out of combat as it’s all said and done in 1 turn.

I hope this has made you have a second look at a larger unit of incubi rather than just going to the 5 man route that I see so often. Trust me when I say they first time you deploy this unit and charge something, the opponents face makes it all worth it! If you have any suggestions or comments feel free! Incubi are one of my favourite units and I think seeing more on the table is only a good thing!

Happy hunting!

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 05:13

You sir may have given me the motivation to paint the other five that have been sitting on the shelf Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 07:57

Great write up and I totally agree with the logic however it's getting the unit into combat as the main issue. Are we considering a webway carrier start with the guys for an inch perfect, precise drop on the board, in an attempt to minimise enemy firepower?

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 09:43

Great write up.

To seal the deal make sure you place you objectives in the open. This forces your opponent to be out in the open if he wants to score points, where the lack of assault grenades mean nothing. Not to mention it makes it safer for our skimmers to contest (no dangerous terrain).

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 09:49

A 10 men squad comes at 200 Poins without any upgrades.
While a smaller squad of Incubi won't attract too much fire a full 10 men squad will.
Bolters wont kill them easily. But Bolters are no longer aimed at them as they are reserved for small squads. Big squads are targeted by templates and blasts as they hit them easy and in most cases ignore their FnP. Thats why you want to keep them small - to make you opponent think that templates/blasts would be a waste on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 10:21

T3 and save 3+ is not so good. Is good for us, yes, but for other armies is simply "meh".
10 Incubi in a Raider will never see a close combat: simply, this Raider will blowen up at first turn. And even if you get a nice position for the charge, I can prevent your charge without shoot them. Two veichles goes in front of you, making a wall that you can pass, so you need to turn it around, less some inch, and that's all.
Then, I don't see a 10 tactic marine stick togheter since...5 years? Maybe new BA will keep 3 of them, but in 3 Storm Ravens :-/

Why keep 10 Incubi? They are stopable, they don't do this great marvellous close combat, they work vs tactics or maybe firewarriors or what else, they doesn't work against Wolfriders deathstar, or vs some Master Chapters, or BA Death Company, or TzScreamers or any of this common CC units. I don't like spend 210+Raider points to kill some tactic marines, poison shoots and other choice works pretty well without Incubi.
They have ap2, but S4. They are fragile, 3+ save with T3 is NOT hard to kill, they are linked with Raider: without it they are dead meat, they aren't a stopper unit (witch is amazing vs Daemons and other deathstars)...
why 10 models units? I don't like it, much better 3 of them with Klaivex, in a Venom. A little CC unit, good to finish any enemy unit, wounded by our shoot.
and still cost 70 points.

My two cents
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 12:35

How about that Incubi with an Autarch with a Soulshrive (Iyanden supplement) as a way to semi-bypass lack of grenades?

The thing about the large size Incubi i suppose, is to keep them in reserve or out of LoS for a few turns (if they have a Basilisk you are screwed though), and then charge with FNP + possibly FC.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 13:04

This is certainly worth playtesting, an excellent write-up, thanks!

A Raider with shields, Flat-out in turn 1 into charging range for turn 2; by your logic, even if it DOES get heavily targetted, it remains a viable unit, but if you can get that Flat Out to end up in good cover; crash it into cover, who cares if it Immobilises itself?), this could give your opponent a real headache!
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 13:19

Great write up Massaen. I totally agree with you. Painreaver beat me to the punch but an Autarch with Banshee Mask and Soulshrive is an Incubi units best friend. Plus he rocks in at under 120pts... making it easy to throw only a couple of Eldar jetbikes in there keeping the CW presence minimal. The presence of the Autarch effective turns the Incubi into super Banshees on top of all that pointed out above.

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 15:16

I'm trying to tinker a list that includes a Grot, 9/10 man Incubi- Reaver in list. Even add an Autarch and some windriders if possible, just for the better reserve drop.

Such a list might look a little like this

Succubus w/ Archite Glaive, Armor of Misery or Archon w/ Shadow Field, Agonizer- 110/125
Autarch w/ Banshee Mask, Soulshrive- 120

3x Grotesque, Raider w/ Night Shield and Aethersails- 180
9x Incubi, Klaivex, Raider w/ Night Shield and Aethersails- 265

5x Warrior, Venom 2x SC- 105
5x Warrior, Venom 2x SC- 105
3x Windriders- 51

5x Scourges, 4x, HL/HWB- 120
6x Reavers, 2x CC, 2x HL- 146

Ravager, 3x DL, NS- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS- 140

Total: 1482/1497 pts

So with this list, I have some mean ass CC units, as well as reliability for them arriving on from reserve. And the Autarch allowing the Incubi to strike at the same time as the enemy when charging through cover. If the Autarch gets a few kills of his own, then he gets more powerful.

In a pure DE list, I'd drop the second character, bump the Incubi to 10 and the Grots to 4 and the Reavers to a full 9 with a complementary Arena Champ w/ Agonizer and the extra caltrop/heat lance. Or grab a third Venom full of Warriors.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 16:42

I will just note in your writeup about small Incubi squads you are overlooking the oft included Klaivex who will unquestionably challenge the fist packing Sarge unless they came through cover, which dramatically shifts the Marine damage output.

I'd also say that this writeup also presumes the idea of taking a 260+ point assault unit or so to do cleanup work on non-assault units. Though this is fine I would suggest the idea that it is not the best way to use 260+ points in our army. Yes, I could take Incubi to kill 2 Troop selections of my opponent. But is that worth it as a max Incubi squad goal and purpose? Just crunching the numbers - 2 minimized Warrior Blaster squads in Venoms are killing off the Marine squad in 2 rounds as well, with time and energy to spare, and could be doing other things at the same time, and cost less.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 17:04

Oh I agree Thor there are much more efficient ways to achieve the same result - but I keep seeing Incubi suck due to lack of grenades - this is not the case with a full (or close to full) squad - they are effective at their primary role. Just not efficient

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 17:16

I would actually even say they are efficient at their primary role, but just like with wyches - there is basically no reason to ever bother with their primary role because it's a dumb role.

I'd also say it's not the role that GW thought they were designing them for. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 20:02

@Thor665 wrote:
I would actually even say they are efficient at their primary role, but just like with wyches - there is basically no reason to ever bother with their primary role because it's a dumb role.

I'd also say it's not the role that GW thought they were designing them for. Wink

I cant help but agree with you there At i believe 5 more points than a banshee they are less useful in most situations then they are.

I know they haven't dumbed down the eldar into 7th yet, but as of now thats who we have to compare these guys to. I love these bastards but they cannot do their job against enemys who know how your codex plays (in my circle its all of them)

Earlier someone in another thread informed me that assault grenades are model based and it seems to me The pgl HAD to be changed last minute (The two-handed being added to hellions being one other of many)
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Fri Dec 26 2014, 20:56

Quote :
I cant help but agree with you there At i believe 5 more points than a banshee they are less useful in most situations then they are.

Actually they are WAY better than Banshees.
On the other hand you don't see Banshess very often for nearly the same reasons.

Everyone and their grandmothers are better suited to deal with threats that Banshees/Incubi are designed against.

See that guys in the 3+ armor over there? Why would I charge them with Banshees when I can just shoot them from a safe distance without any retailation for less points spent?
Same with Incubi. I dont even know why they bothered to give them AP2 as there is currently only very few models with a 2+ armor that do not just shred the Incubi.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 01:00

You use Incubi not to shred Termies, even though yes you can shred Termies. You see those objective holders full of Tac Marines. *Incubi charge* Now you don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 01:49

Incubi do very well against 2+ save units - it's the ++ save that hurts them!

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 03:18

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
I cant help but agree with you there At i believe 5 more points than a banshee they are less useful in most situations then they are.

Actually they are WAY better than Banshees.
On the other hand you don't see Banshess very often for nearly the same reasons.

Everyone and their grandmothers are better suited to deal with threats that Banshees/Incubi are designed against.

See that guys in the 3+ armor over there? Why would I charge them with Banshees when I can just shoot them from a safe distance without any retailation for less points spent?
Same with Incubi. I dont even know why they bothered to give them AP2 as there is currently only very few models with a 2+ armor that do not just shred the Incubi.

Shooting things from a safe distance doesn't always mean no retaliation. The target you shot at, providing it survives will retaliate. Or take down something else.

DE shooting is good, but its not brilliant in any department, other than MC hunting. Some of its best tools IMO is in the Assault phase. And in Maelstrom missions, you may end up drawing assault-oriented objectives.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 07:26

@PainReaver wrote:
You use Incubi not to shred Termies, even though yes you can shred Termies. You see those objective holders full of Tac Marines. *Incubi charge* Now you don't.

And you pay a premium point cost for AP2 because... you will never ever use it and its wasted on 3+ armor troops?
How does that contradic what I did mention?

"No the AP2 is not wasted because you you will never use it"? Sounds... weird.

Quote :
ncubi do very well against 2+ save units - it's the ++ save that hurts them!

Please name 5 units in the entire game with a 2+ but no ++ (and they better should not have a T better than 4) and then think about how silly it is to design a unit that is specialised against the units you mentioned.


Quote :
Shooting things from a safe distance doesn't always mean no retaliation. The target you shot at, providing it survives will retaliate. Or take down something else.

DE shooting is good, but its not brilliant in any department, other than MC hunting. Some of its best tools IMO is in the Assault phase. And in Maelstrom missions, you may end up drawing assault-oriented objectives.

If I shoot you, you shoot back in YOUR shooting phase. So no retailation.
If I fight you you fight back in MY assault phase.
Even if the target survives the shooting there is no indication that it will retaliate against the unit which shot it.

DE shooting is next to brilliant. There are only a few things they struggle with. Coincidently these units also make melee squads weep.
Assault oriented objectives? Thats why you have Grots and maybe some pain engines. And if you get your squishy and overpriced squad of Incubi, you wont have much of the former or latter.


Last edited by Klaivex Charondyr on Sat Dec 27 2014, 07:34; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 07:33

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:
You use Incubi not to shred Termies, even though yes you can shred Termies. You see those objective holders full of Tac Marines. *Incubi charge* Now you don't.

And you pay a premium point cost for AP2 because... you will never ever use it and its wasted on 3+ armor troops?
How does that contradic what I did mention?

"No the AP2 is not wasted because you you will never use it"? Sounds... weird.

What I meant is that whilst yes, you ought to be killing things like Termies, but they do have invuls that, if they pass would spell the death for the majority of your Incubi. Hence they are dangerous targets for the Incubi (Grotesques should be handling Termies). However they can lock down a unit of Centurions (though I daresay 5 will do about the same job, though with the high risk of being bursted away by overwatch), wipe out objective holders over two rounds of combat, thus securing you the objective and they lose an objective secure unit.

Large units of Incubi as the sole assault unit is of course the recipe for a disaster waiting to happen. When paired up with either (and pref. multiples of) Grots, Reavers, Taloi, Wyches they may have to split target fire or risk seeing one unit hit the line.

Plus being AP2, and once you have FC, feel free to charge onto a nearby vehicle (that has a rear armor of 10) and shred it to pieces.

Of course, the downside being you are paying quite a premium price for it.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 07:36

Quote :

Large units of Incubi as the sole assault unit is of course the recipe for a disaster waiting to happen. When paired up with either (and pref. multiples of) Grots, Reavers, Taloi, Wyches they may have to split target fire or risk seeing one unit hit the line.

In a game of what? 5k points?

Quote :
Plus being AP2, and once you have FC, feel free to charge onto a nearby vehicle (that has a rear armor of 10) and shred it to pieces.

And how is that better than Grots?
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 07:55

I would not say better than grots - but you get more incubi than grots for the same points

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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 08:16

Grots and Incubi i feel have two different roles.

A Grot uses his high strength, mass amount of attacks and thick skin to do damage and take damage and grind out the combat over multiple turns. Also meat shield for Independent characters.

An Incubus uses his high volume of armor-penetrating attacks, with high numbers of buddies, and seeks to finish the combat ASAP. They are very good at hunting certain danger units like Cents.

Klaivex- I can fit at a least one unit of Grot, full Incubi and full Reavers in 1500 pts.
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 12:01

The reason I take Incubi (usually 5, but will be trying a 10 now), is not to deal with 2+ armour, but to deal with 3+.
Whilst the AP2 is possibly useful, it's the AP3 that makes it. My Incubi don't chase the scary nasty Terminators, MCs etc, they go after the troops, and they smash them. This thread has excited me, as I normally expect them to remove one troop unit, and present a little end-game distraction, whereas with the OP's proposal, they might double that.

I run MSU, present lots of targets, and try to get into combat. If I wanted a shooting orientated army, there are better codecii for it!

Hmm, now I'm thinking running 2x5Incubi might be better than 1x10; twin Venoms, but run them as a duet...
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PostSubject: Re: Cover and Incubi - not the end of the world with the right build   Sat Dec 27 2014, 13:09

Quote :
The reason I take Incubi (usually 5, but will be trying a 10 now), is not to deal with 2+ armour, but to deal with 3+.
Whilst the AP2 is possibly useful, it's the AP3 that makes it. My Incubi don't chase the scary nasty Terminators, MCs etc, they go after the troops, and they smash them. This thread has excited me, as I normally expect them to remove one troop unit, and present a little end-game distraction, whereas with the OP's proposal, they might double that.

But thats exactly what im talking about.
You pay a TAX for AP2 just to... never actually use it. And we have a lot of tools to deal with 3+ saves that can also be applied to "scary terminators" or MCs instead of avoiding them.

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