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 A purpose for Wracks?

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 00:02

@The Shredder wrote:
@Grimcrimm wrote:
Its very much a matter of preference, But i feel these guys are more well rounded then those warriors, and at one toughness more and 1 more shot (attack on charge in melee) i feel they handle MC's better They are some of the few things in our codex with massed poison attacks the other being lhameans. At tough 4 with 5+ FnP constant they are more survivable outside of the transport and they are imposing for melee oriented High tough Single units to attack.

If they were troops, I'd agree with you.

Oh believe me im right there with you
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 14:01

@Grimcrimm wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Grimcrimm wrote:
They are some of the few things in our codex with massed poison attacks the other being lhameans. At tough 4 with 5+ FnP constant they are more survivable outside of the transport and they are imposing for melee oriented High tough Single units to attack.

Um, do Venoms and Warriors not count as having massed poison attacks?   Did the shooting phase cease to exist?  I'd much rather shoot something from afar than get up close to it and get stomped on.  

T4 with 5+ FNP is NOT that survivable.

I don't think Wracks are imposing to anything that isn't GEQ or weaker.   And even then, I'm not so sure...
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 14:09

@sweetbacon wrote:
@Grimcrimm wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Grimcrimm wrote:
They are some of the few things in our codex with massed poison attacks the other being lhameans. At tough 4 with 5+ FnP constant they are more survivable outside of the transport and they are imposing for melee oriented High tough Single units to attack.

Um, do Venoms and Warriors not count as having massed poison attacks?   Did the shooting phase cease to exist?  I'd much rather shoot something from afar than get up close to it and get stomped on.  

T4 with 5+ FNP is NOT that survivable.  

I don't think Wracks are imposing to anything that isn't GEQ or weaker.   And even then, I'm not so sure...

i was referring to ATTACKS as in assault phase, and in an army of tough 3 with almost nothing but non-existent armor tough 4 with a constant 5+ FnP IS tough.

Im giving uses for the tools we have and lord knows we have 6 of the same pair of scissors. and at tough 4 and 5+ FnP they are the most survivable thing in our army for under 16 points a model
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 17:31

@Grimcrimm wrote:

i was referring to ATTACKS as in assault phase

But why is that important?

Assault is already far less preferable to shooting as a general strategy, so if you're going to make use of it you really want a unit that hits harder than basic weapons firing.

@Grimcrimm wrote:
and in an army of tough 3 with almost nothing but non-existent armor tough 4 with a constant 5+ FnP IS tough.

Problem is, being tough by DE standards isn't the same as being tough as an absolute, if you see what I mean. And, the latter is all that really counts.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 18:39

@The Shredder wrote:
Problem is, being tough by DE standards isn't the same as being tough as an absolute, if you see what I mean. And, the latter is all that really counts.

In other words: Tough by Space Marine standards.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 19:03

Well, since Space Marines are by far the most commonly played army in 40K, I don't see anything wrong with using them as a baseline for comparison.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 19:16

@Rokuro wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
Problem is, being tough by DE standards isn't the same as being tough as an absolute, if you see what I mean. And, the latter is all that really counts.

In other words: Tough by Space Marine standards.

Somewhat, yes.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 19:20

Ten marines with bolters rapid fire. They'll kill (if my math is close to accurate) on average 9 Kabalites, or 4 to 5 Wracks. And while the Kabalites may run (before turn 5), the Wracks get fearless almost immediately, so they may soak up more fire from an opponent wanting to get rid of them. This makes them objectively better at holding objectives than Kabalites (though not as good at shooting things while holding objectives).

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 19:31

I don't think I would try and use Wracks to tank Bolter fire. Actually, they would seem safer in close combat with those shooty Marines. A squad of 10 Wracks shouldn't even have to fear their overwatch as much as, say, Wyches.

In the current edition, the best thing about close combat is probably that it keeps your opponent from shooting you.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 19:34

@Rokuro wrote:
I don't think I would try and use Wracks to tank Bolter fire.

And I certainly wouldn't use Warriors to tank bolter fire. Wink
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 19:47

@The Shredder wrote:
And I certainly wouldn't use Warriors to tank bolter fire. Wink

Tanking is generally not one of our strong points. No
Against MEQs, offense is our only defense. And out of all our troops, Wracks seem to have the best chances of getting into close combat with them.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 20:36

@Rokuro wrote:
Tanking is generally not one of our strong points. No
Against MEQs, offense is our only defense. And out of all our troops, Wracks seem to have the best chances of getting into close combat with them.

They do, but that's the thing - I don't want to be in melee with them. tongue

I want to kill them at range... preferably from a transport... that's in cover.

Leave the heroic charges to the marines. Very Happy
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 21:07

Leave the heroic charges to the Grots, Reavers, and/or Incubi, would be my preference.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 21:52

@The Shredder wrote:
They do, but that's the thing - I don't want to be in melee with them. tongue

I want to kill them at range... preferably from a transport... that's in cover.

Leave the heroic charges to the marines. Very Happy  

Oh, there's nothing really heroic about it. I'd just much rather face AP - combat knives than any of their guns. Wink

Now, I wouldn't try doing this with Wracks against any kind of assault Marines, and probably still shoot them whenever I can in general. But if I'm presented with the option to stop a tactical, Devastator or Sternguard squad from shooting anything, I'll take that too. And Wracks can potentially hold their ground against shooty MEQs in close combat - definitely better than Wyches, and better than they could in a firefight.

@sweetbacon wrote:
Leave the heroic charges to the Grots, Reavers, and/or Incubi, would be my preference.  

Grotesques and Incubi are certainly better at killing MEQs. That why I would want them to do a little more, like taking out a command squad. Just picking on the shooty guys would be a waste of their potential.

Reavers are decent for interceptions, but their real job is to deal damage on the charge. And even against enemies that are only average in close combat, they don't have the numbers to work even as an improvised tarpit. You just don't want them stuck in combat.

Beastmasters, Kymerae in particular, still make for a better anti-shooty-MEQ tarpit than Wracks. Their downside, however, is the fact that they can't really do anything else.


Wracks with Ossefactors are decent MEQ killers at range, and their unit can be a decent improvised tarpit when you need one as well. They have a level of flexibility that our other troop choices lack.
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sun Dec 28 2014, 23:01

I don't know if its really worth it outside of the formation, but I usually just look for small units that the ossefactor will do the most damage to. Small elite units like centurions and broadsides are great targets, and they are also good for stripping wounds off of monsters if needed. Combined with the splinter cannons on venoms they can do a lot of damage, but without the benefit of the formation I would just take warriors with a blaster. They are can be fun in that formation though.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Mon Dec 29 2014, 03:54

Well, only with wracks could you run 16 venoms for under 1500 points!

Archon in venom
6xKabalites in venom
6xVenoms in fast attack
3xWracks in venom

1495 points.

Fun fact?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Mon Dec 29 2014, 10:15

Then you just have to pray that you're facing Tyranids and not, say, an Imperial Knight army. Wink
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Tue Dec 30 2014, 10:51

Wracks have some purpose, but not many on their own (they are minions after all).

1)First chargers (absorb overwatch, deny cover benefits so you won't care about grenades), THEN you charge with your Incubi but only with one or two so you don't wipe the enemy in one turn. This way you can run large squads of Incubi without the overkill factor.

2)They can deal with high cover saves because of: Liquifer guns, additional ossefactor wounds (if you inflict the first one), or simply charging into combat.

3)They have some offensively effective builds: 2 ossefactors in a disintegrator Raider (optional hexrifle against MCs); 3 liquifer guns in raider or with a WWP haemy (for a 4th LG),...

4)Cheap retinue: for 50 points you get 5 extra wounds with toughness 4 and FnP (but crappy save unless in cover) for your Archon or Haemy. Plus, if they are from the Coven book (and stay alive enough time) they can give your Archon Fearless in turn 2 and Zealot in turn 5.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Tue Dec 30 2014, 12:22

@Eldur wrote:
Wracks have some purpose, but not many on their own (they are minions after all).

1)First chargers (absorb overwatch, deny cover benefits so you won't care about grenades), THEN you charge with your Incubi but only with one or two so you don't wipe the enemy in one turn. This way you can run large squads of Incubi without the overkill factor.

Sorry, but if Incubi need that much help then they're not worth running - and Wracks certainly aren't.

Also, how are you avoiding the overkill factor when it requires not only a large unit of Incubi but also a squad of Wracks to take down a target? Neutral

@Eldur wrote:

2)They can deal with high cover saves because of: Liquifer guns, additional ossefactor wounds (if you inflict the first one), or simply charging into combat.

Additional Ossefactor wounds are dicey - since the target will have an obscene cover save against the first (and most important) one. Also, if you're dealing with high cover saves by charging into combat, then what makes them better than Grotesques?

@Eldur wrote:

3)They have some offensively effective builds: 2 ossefactors in a disintegrator Raider (optional hexrifle against MCs); 3 liquifer guns in raider or with a WWP haemy (for a 4th LG),...


I'm not sure I'd rate the Ossefactor build over a unit of Warriors with a blaster, in a Raider with a Disintegrator and Splinter Racks. The Wracks are putting out 3 S5 AP2 shots, 2 AP2 shots that wound on a 2+, and *maybe* 2d6 hits that wound on a 4+. But, that's only if your Ossefactor shots actually kill a model each. The Warriors meanwhile are putting out 3 S5 AP2 shots, 1 S8 AP2 shot, and 9-18 TL Poison Shots (depending on range). Also, they're 20pts cheaper than the Wrack squad and are troops (so can have Objective Secured). I know which squad I'd rather have for offensive shooting.

@Eldur wrote:

4)Cheap retinue: for 50 points you get 5 extra wounds with toughness 4 and FnP (but crappy save unless in cover) for your Archon or Haemy. Plus, if they are from the Coven book (and stay alive enough time) they can give your Archon Fearless in turn 2 and Zealot in turn 5.


Here's the problem though - what is this gaining you over Grotesques? Yeah, they're cheaper, but by being stingy with points here you're giving your melee Archon bodyguards who will struggle to outfight a cream-slice. And, Archons don't have anywhere near enough killing power to carry the unit. Grotesques are more expensive, but they give your Archon/Haemonculus T5, have 9 wounds even in a minimum squad and can actually threaten a lot of units in combat. Plus, whilst Coven Grotesques are also fearless from turn 2, they also benefit from more of that pfp table - most notably getting IWND and eventually EW.

I guess you could use the strategy you suggested above and have a Haemonculus and 5 Wracks with 3 Liquifiers between them, but for an Archon this seems pretty pointless. It seems like you'd be better off giving him a blaster and putting him with some Trueborn - or even some Warriors.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Tue Dec 30 2014, 13:40

If we're talking template weapons, a Medusae costs the same as a Wrack with a Liquifier. Why not take the better weapon for the same points?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Tue Dec 30 2014, 13:48

@sweetbacon wrote:
If we're talking template weapons, a Medusae costs the same as a Wrack with a Liquifier.  Why not take the better weapon for the same points?  

Well, some people might prefer having a tougher bodyguard and/or having a 1/3 chance to get AP1/2 - rather than having flamers that are fixed at AP3.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Tue Dec 30 2014, 16:05

@The Shredder wrote:
Well, some people might prefer having a tougher bodyguard and/or having a 1/3 chance to get AP1/2 - rather than having flamers that are fixed at AP3.

To something with 2+ armor, or any kind of AV, S3 Liquifiers are probably not a big threat anyway.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Tue Dec 30 2014, 16:41

@Rokuro wrote:
To something with 2+ armor, or any kind of AV, S3 Liquifiers are probably not a big threat anyway.

True.

I wish we could buy Heavy Flamers instead.
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