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 A purpose for Wracks?

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 00:26

I've played a few games with the Scalpel Squadron, and on a whole, I'm very satisfied with the deep striking and first blood benefits.... But what am I supposed to do with the Wracks after the initial drop? Pretty much nothing is scared of 5 Wracks. So far I've been putting them on remote objectives, where they've been loitering until someone saw fit to evict them...

But there has the be something useful for them to do....

Anything?

#wracks


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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 01:24

Things should be afraid of them. They're cheap, durable, have 3 attacks on the charge, and wound everything on 4+. The Scalpel Squadron wracks are especially good for winkling special weapons or sergeants out of their meat shields.

I generally keep them in the Venoms until targets of opportunity present themselves. (What special weapons do you take on them? Either way you come down, Ossefactor or Liquifier Gun, it can be very beneficial.)
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 20:04

If they charge, they will on average kill 2 guards or one marine..... Why would someone be afraid of that? I can see wraith knights and daemon princes probably avoiding them... but common things?
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 21:17

@Sigmaril wrote:
I've played a few games with the Scalpel Squadron, and on a whole, I'm very satisfied with the deep striking and first blood benefits.... But what am I supposed to do with the Wracks after the initial drop? Pretty much nothing is scared of 5 Wracks. So far I've been putting them on remote objectives, where they've been loitering until someone saw fit to evict them...

But there has the be something useful for them to do....

Anything?

Honestly, this is the problem I have with Wracks in general. They don't have the benefit of striking before most other enemies (only I4 and no grenades), they're not particularly tough (T4 and a 5++ save, whoop), and they don't even hit hard (wow, 4+ poison with no rerolls, that's sooo rare in our army Rolling Eyes).

Anyway, my suggestion is that you just try to make the best use of their Osseffactors. Either fly them around, or land them next to an objective (preferably in cover, where some of the squad can remain out of LoS).
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 21:42

@Sigmaril wrote:
If they charge, they will on average kill 2 guards or one marine..... Why would someone be afraid of that? I can see wraith knights and daemon princes probably avoiding them... but common things?

Common things have reasons to fear the firepower rather than the melee attacks of this formation.
Liquifiers can burn through Guards 'n Gaunts, while Ossefactors quite literally explode MEQs or stronger. And then you also get up to 12 Splinter Cannon shots per Venom.

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 22:01

Okay. So upgrades is the answer. Is it worth it to try for the Hexrifle? Or is the Ossefactor/Liquifier good enough/better?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 22:14

@Rokuro wrote:
@Sigmaril wrote:
If they charge, they will on average kill 2 guards or one marine..... Why would someone be afraid of that? I can see wraith knights and daemon princes probably avoiding them... but common things?

Common things have reasons to fear the firepower rather than the melee attacks of this formation.
Liquifiers can burn through Guards 'n Gaunts, while Ossefactors quite literally explode MEQs or stronger. And then you also get up to 12 Splinter Cannon shots per Venom.

Although, liquifier doesn't really mesh well with the formation, due to the very short range.

@Sigmaril wrote:
Okay. So upgrades is the answer. Is it worth it to try for the Hexrifle? Or is the Ossefactor/Liquifier good enough/better?

Personally, I don't think the Hexrifle is worth it. I'd just take an Ossefactor and be done with it.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 22:30

What about an Acothsyt and his special weapons? I have been working on building a Scalpel Squad myself. Two S.Cannons on Venomcs and the Osscifactor is best for the scalpel squad imo but wonder what people think about the acothyst and his special weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 22:38

@Ciirian wrote:
What about an Acothsyt and his special weapons? I have been working on building a Scalpel Squad myself. Two S.Cannons on Venomcs and the Osscifactor is best for the scalpel squad imo but wonder what people think about the acothyst and his special weapons.

As mentioned already, Scalpel Squads are not that great in close combat. Adding a special melee weapon to a single model is not going to make a difference.
The Acothyst's only weapon that could actually improve the unit is the Liquifier, but only against soft targets.

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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Fri Dec 26 2014, 23:30

@Ciirian wrote:
What about an Acothsyt and his special weapons?  

The problem with that is that Acothysts aren't good in combat to begin with, and our special weapons are pretty awful:

- A Venom Blade was awsome as a cheap upgrade on an Archon or Haemonculus. Now, it's twice the price and only available on a model with WS4 I4 and 4 attacks on the charge. Plus, you're not even getting a discount from upgrading the 4+ poison weapons he already comes with.

- Mindphase Gauntlet... why? Just... why? This is quite possibly the worst weapon I've ever seen. I don't care if it costs 5pts, it's not worth 1pt. You'd have to give me extra points to take it, because it's worse than the weapons he already comes with.

- Scissorhands are decent, but probably not worth it. Since you already have poison 4+ weapons, you're just paying 10pts to add Rending. It's a nice ability, but I don't think the Acothyst has enough attacks to take advantage of it.

- Flesh Gauntlet - if you want these, use Grotesques instead.  Wink

- Electrocorrosive Whip - not worth its cost, plain and simple.

- Agoniser - I know a lot of people like this, but I don't. I liked it when it was 20pts and AP2. Now, it's 25pts and has worse AP. I wouldn't even take it on an Archon, let alone a mere Acothyst.


The thing is, what the Acothyst really wants is something like a Power Fist - something that will compensate for his poor combat stats by making virtually every hit a kill. Hell, even a Power Axe would be something. Unfortunately, what he actually has access to is a pile of weapons that either do nothing, make him worse or are only barely better than the weapons he comes with as standard.

Honestly, I don't think an Acothyst is worth including at all, let alone for his selection of garbage special weapons. The only time I'd include one is if I was planning to put a character in the squad, and wanted something to accept challenges.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 00:41

Other than the Scalpel Squadron, I cannot figure out why one would take Wracks.   I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I simply don't "get" Wracks.  I don't understand what their use is supposed to be.  They are not good at assault (if you want something dead in assault send Grots/Talos/Incubi), they aren't really that resilient, and they have almost no shooting attacks.   I think the Ossefactor is a good weapon...but they can only take one per five man squad.  Liquifiers got weaker, more expensive and are still way too random for my liking.  

I don't think they're obviously terrible like Hellions and Wyches.  I just have no idea what GW intended their role to be, as anything that would be scared of Wracks (and that list is vanishingly small) is probably something you're just better off shooting with splinter weaponry.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 03:16

@sweetbacon wrote:
Other than the Scalpel Squadron, I cannot figure out why one would take Wracks.   I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I simply don't "get" Wracks.  I don't understand what their use is supposed to be.  They are not good at assault (if you want something dead in assault send Grots/Talos/Incubi), they aren't really that resilient, and they have almost no shooting attacks.   I think the Ossefactor is a good weapon...but they can only take one per five man squad.  Liquifiers got weaker, more expensive and are still way too random for my liking.  

I don't think they're obviously terrible like Hellions and Wyches.  I just have no idea what GW intended their role to be, as anything that would be scared of Wracks (and that list is vanishingly small) is probably something you're just better off shooting with splinter weaponry.


They are cheap units to throw at tough MC's that is their primary role otherwise they sit on points and wait for something to get too close
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 08:01

@sweetbacon wrote:
Other than the Scalpel Squadron, I cannot figure out why one would take Wracks.   I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I simply don't "get" Wracks.  I don't understand what their use is supposed to be.  They are not good at assault (if you want something dead in assault send Grots/Talos/Incubi), they aren't really that resilient, and they have almost no shooting attacks.   I think the Ossefactor is a good weapon...but they can only take one per five man squad.  Liquifiers got weaker, more expensive and are still way too random for my liking.  

I don't think they're obviously terrible like Hellions and Wyches.  I just have no idea what GW intended their role to be, as anything that would be scared of Wracks (and that list is vanishingly small) is probably something you're just better off shooting with splinter weaponry.

Put simple, Wracks exist to quickly stack Power From Pain buffs on them. On their own they got +1, attaching a Haemy makes it +2, and if he successfully uses the Animus Vitae it becomes 3+.

The addition of the Ossefactor and potentially multiple Liquifiers also gives them some fire support potential, and a unit of 10 or more can be a treat to monstrous creatures in close combat, but they are not really made for those roles.

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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 09:12

Quote :
Put simple, Wracks exist to quickly stack Power From Pain buffs on them.
In my opinion they dont get much besides first Fearless and much letter Zealot, and any CC buff on them is questionable, cause they are not appearing to me as a proper CC unit.

I think after you do dont first blood job they are ok at supporting any assault you might wanna make, cause they are literally +1 to combat result if you won the combat. Just by hanging around with their Freakish Spectacle special rule. Or fighting in the same assault.

They are ok at hunting MC's with Ossefactor and generally shooting something with it. Like bikers. Its a good weapon with a good range of 24 inches. If it hits, and target is not in cover - it'l gonna hurt.

Wracks and assault.

They seem to me that they have very specific list of targets they can do ok in assault. And all of them have strenght 3. The only good targets for them is ones that will will wound them on 5+.
So its imperial guard platoon, fire warriors, guardians, cultists, dire avengers that sorta units. Non combat strenght 3 units. Most of them dont have Fearless, so they can be swept.

All in all they seem a like a backbone support unit. If by any chance you want to be less deadly, but more sturdy - here is wracks. There are many much worse way to spend 230-260 pts then on 2 Venoms, that cant be shot first turn with some decent AI shooting inside.

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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 11:15

@sweetbacon wrote:
Other than the Scalpel Squadron, I cannot figure out why one would take Wracks.   I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I simply don't "get" Wracks.  I don't understand what their use is supposed to be.  They are not good at assault (if you want something dead in assault send Grots/Talos/Incubi), they aren't really that resilient, and they have almost no shooting attacks.   I think the Ossefactor is a good weapon...but they can only take one per five man squad.  Liquifiers got weaker, more expensive and are still way too random for my liking.  

I don't think they're obviously terrible like Hellions and Wyches.  I just have no idea what GW intended their role to be, as anything that would be scared of Wracks (and that list is vanishingly small) is probably something you're just better off shooting with splinter weaponry.

I'm the same - I really have no idea what they're supposed to do. They just don't seem to be very good at anything. They have a nice gun, but only 1 model per 5 can have it, and the rest can't have any guns at all. They have 2 attacks each, but only 4+ poison with no rerolls due to poor strength (any reason why I wouldn't just use a Venom?). Also, they even gain much benefit from either PfP table.

I think the real problem is that they weren't good last edition either, and virtually nothing has changed (they got a shiny new weapon, but at the cost of their old weapon - and the poison table has made them much worse to begin with). And, at least back then you could take them as troops - now they're a unit with troop stats and troop weapon allowances, but permanently stuck in the elites slot.

Even when I consider one of their formations, like Covenite Fleshcorps or Scarlet Epicureans, their bonuses just don't seem worth it over just taking Grotesques.

@Grimcrimm wrote:
They are cheap units to throw at tough MC's that is their primary role otherwise they sit on points and wait for something to get too close

Is there a reason you'd want Wracks for either of those? Surely Warriors would be far better against MCs, since they can shoot them with poison from 12" without losing half their number in combat. Hell, a Venom averages the same number of wounds as a squad of Wracks on the charge, and does so from 36" away.

@Rokuro wrote:
Put simple, Wracks exist to quickly stack Power From Pain buffs on them. On their own they got +1, attaching a Haemy makes it +2, and if he successfully uses the Animus Vitae it becomes 3+.

Where are they getting the initial +1 from? Also, *successfully* is the key word there - the Animus is hardly a fool-proof weapon

Also, what are these bonuses even doing for the Wracks? If you use the regular table, then you're getting (by turn number):
1) Nothing
2) Nothing
3) Nothing
4) Furious Charge
5) Fearless
6) Rage

And, let's not forget that in most cases Furious Charge won't bring their strength up high enough to get rerolls - so they're getting no benefit from that either. What Wracks really want is something to boost their combat ability, but they only get one such buff on the table and it's the very last one.

Or, if you use the Coven table:
1) Nothing
2) Fearless
3) Might as well be a free Toaster
4) Nothing
5) Zealot
6) Nothing

Remember what I said before? Well, now they're only waiting until turn 5 to get that one, solitary combat buff. Yey...?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 13:00

Quote :
On their own they got +1

From which rule?
The only wracks that can do this are members of a specific formation.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 13:33

I think Shredder summed it up very nicely.  Even the Coven PfP only really benefits them on Turn 2 and Turn 5.  If they could still be troops, then I MIGHT consider them to be somewhat useful if I was running an all Coven list.  As for taking on MC's, that's why we have army wide poison shooting weapons.  If you want to tie something up, I still say send some Grots at it, who can not only tie it up but also stand a good chance of killing it.  As far as just taking them so they can camp on Objectives, if I'm doing that, I'd rather just take a cheaper squad of Warriors who might actually shoot something to death.  

Like I said, it seems some people have found a way to make use of them and that's great.  But personally, I can't imagine a situation where I couldn't find something better to do whatever is that GW thinks Wracks are supposed to do.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 16:25

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
On their own they got +1

From which rule?
The only wracks that can do this are members of a specific formation.

I got that wrong. My mind was still in 6th edition for a moment there.
I haven't actually fielded Wracks yet, so I'm not perfectly savy with their rules.

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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 19:38

Hexrifle is worth it to me! I take one in each squad now for my scapel squadron. Yesterday I turn 1 got instant death on a hive tyrant. It was pretty epic!
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 20:50

The important part i neglected earlier is that you use them to lock down an mc in cc you take the "awesomefactor" or 2 if its a 10 man squad and now you have a still cheap squad of dudes who will kill a 3 wound mc reliably OR injure a high wound MC. So for their points they are a cheap highpower weapon carrier / MC tarpitter. If you take 10 guys 2 awesomefactors and a raider with dissie, you will have a relatively cheap squad who is not affraid of the transport exploding (or not as afraid).

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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 22:00

Well I'm aware it's a too specific use to worth something, but I'd love to use Coven Supplement wracks against Str3 orks: T4, fear, -1Ld and wound on 4+. With fnp they even have better "armor" than many orks. You can also use them against ork bikers/coptas and still wound on 4+.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 22:08

@Grimcrimm wrote:
The important part i neglected earlier is that you use them to lock down an mc in cc you take the "awesomefactor" or 2 if its a 10 man squad and now you have a still cheap squad of dudes who will kill a 3 wound mc reliably OR injure a high wound MC. So for their points they are a cheap highpower weapon carrier / MC tarpitter. If you take 10 guys 2 awesomefactors and a raider with dissie, you will have a relatively cheap squad who is not affraid of the transport exploding (or not as afraid).

For 10 more points I can take four Grots with the Raider.  More wounds, more attacks, higher toughness, higher strength, IWND actually matters (assuming you're using Coven supplement...and why wouldn't you?), plus instant death weapons (which will re-roll to wound against most opponents).
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 22:58

@Grimcrimm wrote:
The important part i neglected earlier is that you use them to lock down an mc in cc you take the "awesomefactor" or 2 if its a 10 man squad and now you have a still cheap squad of dudes who will kill a 3 wound mc reliably OR injure a high wound MC.

I actually assumed that anyway, since no other Wrack weapons are worth a damn. tongue

I don't see the difference - Wracks can get an Ossefactor, Warriors can get a Blaster.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 23:08

@The Shredder wrote:
@Grimcrimm wrote:
The important part i neglected earlier is that you use them to lock down an mc in cc you take the "awesomefactor" or 2 if its a 10 man squad and now you have a still cheap squad of dudes who will kill a 3 wound mc reliably OR injure a high wound MC.

I actually assumed that anyway, since no other Wrack weapons are worth a damn. tongue

I don't see the difference - Wracks can get an Ossefactor, Warriors can get a Blaster.

Its very much a matter of preference, But i feel these guys are more well rounded then those warriors, and at one toughness more and 1 more shot (attack on charge in melee) i feel they handle MC's better They are some of the few things in our codex with massed poison attacks the other being lhameans. At tough 4 with 5+ FnP constant they are more survivable outside of the transport and they are imposing for melee oriented High tough Single units to attack.
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PostSubject: Re: A purpose for Wracks?   Sat Dec 27 2014, 23:39

@Grimcrimm wrote:
Its very much a matter of preference, But i feel these guys are more well rounded then those warriors, and at one toughness more and 1 more shot (attack on charge in melee) i feel they handle MC's better They are some of the few things in our codex with massed poison attacks the other being lhameans. At tough 4 with 5+ FnP constant they are more survivable outside of the transport and they are imposing for melee oriented High tough Single units to attack.

If they were troops, I'd agree with you.
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