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MuGGzy
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PostSubject: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 18:41

Just curious as to how many Venoms one could actually (legally) fit into a list and still have any chance of being competitive? I have 3 so far and an opportunity to get some more at a good discount but I am not sure how many I could actually use if I had them.
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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 18:57

Modding Move - this isn't an army list, so it really doesn't belong in the Army List forum. Makes sense as a strategic question though, so here it goes.
-Thor


Now, with mod hat off; that's a very complicated question.

It would depend on what point level you were playing and what the rest of your army was.

Probably in the 1750-2000 range the *most* Venoms I've ever seen or fielded while still thinking the list was viable would be 7 or so. I've seen some lists edge up into 9 Venoms, though I think that's usually a mistake.

In my 1850-2000 list I field 3 and am working on one that fields 0 - so that should give you an idea of how vast of a variety there can be in number of Venoms in a competitive list.
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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 19:35

The most venoms you can possibly field is 10.

Whether or not that is competitive or not is up for debate and is quite an in depth discussion.

best answer is to look in the Court of the Archon, which to a few is deemed competitive and viewed by most as utterly horrible.

Honestly I think it depends on how you build your list and what you put into to it as to whether or not they are a good fit or not. I view venoms and raiders both as essential depending on your troops and elites choices.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 19:39

GAR wrote:
The most venoms you can possibly field is 10.
11, actually.

6 Troops
3 Elite
2 HQ via fielding 2 Archons and 2 Courts.
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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 19:41

GAH!

Yeah, 11. Good catch, although 2 courts is loosing the game if you ask me.

But now I am tempted to test the court out and see if there really is anything to them, maybe some hidden something or other.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 19:41

GAR wrote:
The most venoms you can possibly field is 10

11 Wink. You could have 2 courts if you had 2 Archons.

To be honest I wouldn't recomend this mainly for fluff reasons though.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 20:03

The most you can field competitively is 9, and I disagree with Thor with that is a viable list. Its very one sided, but its our spam type list.

I run anywhere from 3-9,I like them alot, but sometimes you need that extra lance or more room from that raider. Its all in how the list is built around. If you want 9, then build a list around having 9.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 20:14

I like running anywhere from 3~6, usually with my assault units and portal guardians on Raiders. Of course, this is at 2,000 points, so smaller lists will usually involve smaller numbers, but roughly the same proportions.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 21:05

Little tip for you, 4 venoms put out just enough shooting to statistically kill around 5 Meq's a turn, thats enpugh to kill or seriously gimp long fangs and anything else like that, my Ideal balanced lists always strive to have four Venoms in them, any more and I think it starts to impact your balance, as has already been said the mobile lances and transport capacity of the raiders are not to be lost lightly.

I detest Venom spam btw, I cannot think of anything much more boring than a list like that, assembling painting and playing with/against that will be horrifically dull. especially when you consider that the DE is possibly one of the better books if you want to avoid one trick Pony armies.

My theory on Venom spam is this: It IS competitive but only in the sense that it is the easiest competitive DE build to master because the theory behind its use is stupidly simple and thats all it does/is good at.

I believe there are many stronger builds in the book but they require more practice/effort/ skill to produce good results with, however in the hands of someone suitably skilled/ experienced they will ultimately be a better list competitively.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 22:09

I played 9 Venoms at the ETC, but if I did it again tomorrow, I'd like to switch two of them out for Raiders (or 10 Grotesques)

And I think playing 9+ Venoms is a lot more fun than it initially looks like.

And I agree, I normally detest spamming...

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 22:24

I like mix of Raiders and Venoms personally. Not only it force opponent to choose (...poorly) but also allow YOU to choose. But since mix mean "as many as You can", then...

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Tue Aug 30 2011, 23:27

Most I've gotten away with so far is 6 Venoms, though between 3-5 has my preference now. They're not, like, our -only- AI option. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 01:30

3-5 would be the max that I would ever run in a 2000pt list. I haven't tried (and have never been tempted) using more than 5 because Raiders with lances are that good. I have run 4 small Wyche units with haywire grenades to play a parking lot Vets IG mech army with some success. Any more than that and you would really start missing those dark light shots. And no, I can't bring myself to field Blasterborn.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 03:08

<==== most fielded so far, 7

I own 9.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 04:05

@GAR - lol. Yeah...I have 6 Ravagers...I'm not sure why, I just do, because the deal on some of them was really good, and...yeah...

@Shadow's Revenge - it wouldn't surprise me that there are 9 Venom lists out there that are good. But I personally think they have some glaring weaknesses that prevent them from being great as compared to lists with less Venoms and more Raiders. In a DE vs. DE fight the man with more Raiders will probably win, because the alpha strike of anti-mech is so important. The same holds true vs. most other 'competitive' builds, as almost all of them use a lot of mech. I'll be happy to be proved wrong if you've got a bat rep or two with a 9 Venom list you can reference me to, but I really think less Venoms is the way to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 07:20

Here is some statistics over all Dark Eldar armies at this year's ETC.
http://www.jirikocman.cz/2011/07/etc-2011-army-list-statistics.html
An average of over 6 venoms in each army with one army bringing none.
In this tournament you often get to dictate what your army will be facing,
so more extreme armies are often favoured, compared to regular tournaments.

So against "the right" opposition, maxed out Venoms is awesome.
But you loose a lot of flexibility, so ideally, a mix would more often be better.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 14:45

the right match can make a huge difference if you get to pick.

11 venoms for the win vs bugs, orks and foot IG, or pretty much any foot army.

Since those are far and few in between, mech is really the best thing to plan for.

I think 6 is about optimal, it gives you enough firepower to start wiping out disembarked troops and still leaves enough points left over for raiders and other AT assets your going to need. This is in 2K points.

Personally, I love fielding a lot of venoms, I think they are just a ton of fun and I Love the look of them.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 17:16

speedfreek wrote:
avg. amount of Raiders = 1.33

mindblown.jpg

Seriously, WHAT?

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 18:54

speedfreek wrote:
In this tournament you often get to dictate what your army will be facing,
so more extreme armies are often favoured, compared to regular tournaments.

So against "the right" opposition, maxed out Venoms is awesome.
But you loose a lot of flexibility, so ideally, a mix would more often be better.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Wed Aug 31 2011, 20:26

You can observe that at any tournament with picking opponents.

Oh, Lash/Bezerker Horde? How about my Razor/Vindi Angels?

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Thu Sep 01 2011, 01:25

I'm aware. But what if Mr Mech picks you? Rav count isn't that impressive either. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Thu Sep 01 2011, 04:53

Thor665 wrote:
GAR wrote:
The most venoms you can possibly field is 10.
11, actually.

6 Troops
3 Elite
2 HQ via fielding 2 Archons and 2 Courts.

I'll play devils advocate here a bit.

15 - planetstrike as attacker
6 troops
6 elite
3 HQ

It wouldn't happen in a competitive environment, but like it's been pointed out, 11 venoms, especially using 2 courts wouldn't be the most competitive since the court will basically be 1 of each court member and the archon, unless you footslog him.

And yes I know you can one up to Apoc and take as many as the points allow, but locally we will play some of these games with small changes to normal lists, where as Apoc is an event. Besides, you could bring 100 venoms to an Apoc game, and the D Strength blast template can take them out in scores, so they are really non-viable.
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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Thu Sep 01 2011, 15:23

Thor665 wrote:
@Shadow's Revenge - it wouldn't surprise me that there are 9 Venom lists out there that are good. But I personally think they have some glaring weaknesses that prevent them from being great as compared to lists with less Venoms and more Raiders. In a DE vs. DE fight the man with more Raiders will probably win, because the alpha strike of anti-mech is so important. The same holds true vs. most other 'competitive' builds, as almost all of them use a lot of mech. I'll be happy to be proved wrong if you've got a bat rep or two with a 9 Venom list you can reference me to, but I really think less Venoms is the way to go.

On the top of my head recently I can only think of This one

Dash only used 8 though, but it gives you an idea of the make-up. max Blasterborn with some warrior backup. Alot of AT and AI. He has all his games from that GT too up on his blog, and if I remember right, he wont 1st.

Im currently pondering if I should do 9 for my upcoming escalation league. I was actually deadset at using 9 (as I hadnt before we started this) But after two battles with 9, Im leaning more towards 8 and 1 raider. Reason being Im using wracks, and for 5 wracks to be effective, they need to have that haemonculus with them, or double team units. Having that Haemie in with them is impossible if you want them to have a liquifer. by droping one of my squads down to 3 (in the venom) upping a venom to a raider, and moving the 2 wracks over to it (and giving the haemie the Liquifier) I think they become a better force overall, while still keeping the same amount of transports. Also this allows me to drop the excess wrack squad (I was originally running 3, 1 to sit back on the objective, and 2 to go out and double team) and switch them to a normal 5 warrior blaster venom... the decisions Razz

I do agree though that DE vs DE matchs are crazy though, and it normally comes up who gets the first real good AT fire T1. What venoms do have over Raiders is they are alot easier to hide, and dont have the whole sail thingy sticking up counting as hull, which helps if you dont get T1.


Last edited by Shadows Revenge on Thu Sep 01 2011, 15:24; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added about the other games)
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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Thu Sep 01 2011, 15:46

Shadows Revenge wrote:


On the top of my head recently I can only think of This one

Dash only used 8 though, but it gives you an idea of the make-up. max Blasterborn with some warrior backup. Alot of AT and AI. He has all his games from that GT too up on his blog, and if I remember right, he wont 1st.

I don't want to thread pirate this but let me say this.

I got a chance to meet Dash at Wargamescon. He seems a decent enough fellow. I also got a chance to watch parts of a couple of his games and there were some shenanigans going on with some interesting interpretations of the rules.

Disembarking open top vehicles that are completely surrounded and wrecked in the assault phase is one that comes to mind.

However, that being said, he is a skilled player and plays his list very well with the 8 venoms. He runs a lot of blasters and his beast pack very well. But his venoms are pretty much his AI and his warriors and trueborn are his AT along with the ravagers. So I get what he does, I don't necessarily follow all of his advise, but it is an example of being able to use the higher numbers of venoms to his advantage and play mostly flawless games.

I think he made a mistake in one of his Sunday games and he got beat pretty good and bumped out of contention. I would recommend reading some of his Bat reps for pointers on running a high Venom list. I know they helped me formulate a strategy for some of my games.

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PostSubject: Re: Maxing Venoms?   Thu Sep 01 2011, 17:38

I have never had the pleasure of meeting Dash, and while I dont always agree with his idea, he does have some sound strategies and advice like any player.

But that aside that is how you would play a venomspam list though, Using your troops as your AT and venoms as your AI. It is the opposite of a normal raider rush list where your transports help towards your AT, while your troops assault or shoot, and personally after 3 or so years of playing a raider rush list in our previous dex, I find it actually refreshing Razz

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