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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 12:30

Thats why I really hoped that every codex would share the Eldar powerlevel. Even without the 2 or 3 heavily underpriced units it would be solid.
I hav played a lot of fun lists with a good mix of everything and I never felt like I was heavily punished for plaing models I like.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 12:50

It's not about power level though, so much as making sure units have a useful role.

What is the role of wyches? They're dedicated melee units with S3 attacks and no rending, poison, shred, AP or anything else to actually make them a threat in combat. And, on top of that, their survivability is abysmal. Outside of combat, an entire unit can die to a stiff breeze, and even in combat they're not much better.

Likewise, what role are hellions fulfilling? Is it poison shooting? Because, I can get poison guns with twice the range on my dedicated transports. Is it assault? Because, what are they going to accomplish? They're a dedicated melee unit with 1 S4 AP5 attack each in combat. One. Attack. Who the hell thought that could possibly be a good idea? Seriously, there have been 7 editions of this bloody game, and GW still can't even write decent statlines.

Also, on a similar note, where are our damn grenades? And why does charging through cover screw us over, whilst doing nothing to low-initiative models?
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 17:52

@The Shredder wrote:

Also, on a similar note, where are our damn grenades? And why does charging through cover screw us over, whilst doing nothing to low-initiative models?

Honestly i think they built us to be a melee oriented army and forgot the grenades, or decided a huge nerf was in order i mean that two-handed on hellions weapon feels like it was tacked on last second
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 18:59

last edition the glaive was 2-handed, but gave +1S and +1A. It is what made hellions upgrade from arguably the worst unit in all of 40K (1st book) to a decent choice in 5th. Of course, they had to remove that +1 attack, because with combat drugs, if you happen to roll that +1 attack effect, they'd be nigh on unstoppable, right? Right guys?
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 19:04

7th edition Dark Eldar are generally plagued by many, MANY bad design choices. But all we can do about it is waiting and hoping for the next codex to fix what the current one broke.


Last edited by Rokuro on Mon Jan 05 2015, 20:02; edited 3 times in total
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 19:04

@Grimcrimm wrote:
Honestly i think they built us to be a melee oriented army and forgot the grenades, or decided a huge nerf was in order

I especially love how they upgraded our really useful grenade launchers to instead fire balloons at our enemies. They make non-marines mildly shaken when they go 'pop'.

@clever handle wrote:
last edition the glaive was 2-handed, but gave +1S and +1A.  It is what made hellions upgrade from arguably the worst unit in all of 40K (1st book) to a decent choice in 5th.  Of course, they had to remove that +1 attack, because with combat drugs, if you happen to roll that +1 attack effect, they'd be nigh on unstoppable, right?  Right guys?

I think if anything made Hellions decent in 5th it was the Baron. He:
- Made them troops.
- Gave them Stealth
- Gave them Grenades
- Gave them Hit & Run
- Allowed them to reroll dangerous terrain tests

When they removed him, the tiny price drop was basically one step forward, then one step backwards over a cliff.

Removing the extra attack from their hellglaives is just a middle finger to DE players, in a book that already had several item equivalents of the design team mooning us.

@Rokuro wrote:
The 7th ed. Dark Eldar are generally plagued by many, MANY bad design choices. But all we can do about it is waiting and hoping for the next next codex to fix what the current one broke.

Or, you know, find a better game. One which doesn't have a deep-seated grudge against its own players.
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 20:51

Shooty DE is still the best.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 22:19

I think a lot of the units are still fine. Wracks, Mandrakes, and Wyches are pretty much the only things that I think are unworkable in this edition. (And the Raven, but that's a different story.)
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 22:21

Five pages of discussion to determine that Hellions are terrible and have no use that other DE units don't perform much better and for better value? I think we've arrived back where we started.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Jan 05 2015, 22:24

Pretty much.
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 00:12

honestly I'd suggest that min sized mandrakes are probably our best objective holders - I mean, if you're going to take grotesques you're taking the grotesquerie, and MAYBE you're taking a unit of incubi (but probably not with grotesques), so what else are you spending elite slots on? A min sized squad to infiltrate onto an objective w/ a 2+ coversave isn't the worst thing in the world - they're probably the winners of the "most improved single unit" award
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 00:20

I agree Clever, if I had some mandrakes or had money to spend I would get 1-2 min sized squads.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 00:35

@clever handle wrote:
honestly I'd suggest that min sized mandrakes are probably our best objective holders - I mean, if you're going to take grotesques you're taking the grotesquerie, and MAYBE you're taking a unit of incubi (but probably not with grotesques), so what else are you spending elite slots on?

Trueborn?

@clever handle wrote:
 A min sized squad to infiltrate onto an objective w/ a 2+ coversave isn't the worst thing in the world

Even so, I dislike using units that actually *do* something whilst holding an objective. And, as one of the most mobile armies, it seems like we have better options in general for holding objectives (especially since our units can score them without ever leaving their transports - or just with the transports themselves).

@clever handle wrote:
they're probably the winners of the "most improved single unit" award

I certainly wouldn't award them that prize. They gained Stealth and Shrouded... in the edition with more Ignores Cover stuff than ever before. And, it cost them their 5++ which helped them in combat. Now they're a melee unit with T3, no save and no grenades. Also, they still don't do anything in combat. When was the last time S4 attacks with no rending, poison, shred or other special rules were useful?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 01:45

And zero survivability in CC. Mandrakes are leagues beyond the crap unit they were, but still miles away from decent.

Slots aside, they still cost points, and are a waste of them.

I would be interested to see if Hellion's or Mandrakes are any better in Kill Team games, however.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 10:12

It's a shame because Mandrakes have some really excellent models at the moment.
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 17:06

@The Shredder wrote:

Trueborn?

sure if you're looking for a squad that got significantly more expensive, and has only got worse as the editions have moved on, I know I love taking my squads of 26ppm T3/5+ dudes...

@The Shredder wrote:

Even so, I dislike using units that actually *do* something whilst holding an objective. And, as one of the most mobile armies, it seems like we have better options in general for holding objectives (especially since our units can score them without ever leaving their transports - or just with the transports themselves).

I'll assume you mean you "like" using units=) that being said I agree, I in no way meant that mandrakes were anywhere near a "must have" - they bring S4 shooting to an army that wounds everything on a 4+ anyways, hardly an amazing tool - unless you're shooting firewarriors, pathfinders, guardsmen or other eldar units, where you're all of a sudden wounding on 3's.

@The Shredder wrote:

I certainly wouldn't award them that prize. They gained Stealth and Shrouded... in the edition with more Ignores Cover stuff than ever before. And, it cost them their 5++ which helped them in combat. Now they're a melee unit with T3, no save and no grenades. Also, they still don't do anything in combat. When was the last time S4 attacks with no rending, poison, shred or other special rules were useful?

(a) they sit in terrain for a 2+ coversave. Please shoot your ignores cover at them. PLEASE! I would love it if serpent shields would be fired into my squads of mandrakes - thus allowing me to fire lances at unprotected hulls; or for Tau players to waste their markerlights removing coversaves from my mandrakes instead of my jinking vehicles; or uh? Baleflamers? Yeah, Chaos players still use heldrakes right? (not really...)
(b) they're not a melee unit. They're a sit in 2+ cover unit that fires AI shooting at 18" range
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 17:46

@clever handle wrote:
sure if you're looking for a squad that got significantly more expensive, and has only got worse as the editions have moved on, I know I love taking my squads of 26ppm T3/5+ dudes...

Significantly more expensive? Really?

My squad costs 7pts more than it did in 5th/6th - hardly a massive increase. And, for those points, I get an ablative wound valuable contribution.

@clever handle wrote:

I'll assume you mean you "like" using units=) that being said I agree, I in no way meant that mandrakes were anywhere near a "must have" - they bring S4 shooting to an army that wounds everything on a 4+ anyways, hardly an amazing tool - unless you're shooting firewarriors, pathfinders, guardsmen or other eldar units, where you're all of a sudden wounding on 3's.

Thing is, against those sort of armies, guns that wound on 3s aren't great anyway - what you really want are blasts or template weapons.

@clever handle wrote:

(a) they sit in terrain for a 2+ coversave.  Please shoot your ignores cover at them.  PLEASE!  I would love it if serpent shields would be fired into my squads of mandrakes - thus allowing me to fire lances at unprotected hulls; or for Tau players to waste their markerlights removing coversaves from my mandrakes instead of my jinking vehicles; or uh?  Baleflamers?  Yeah, Chaos players still use heldrakes right? (not really...)


Why is the enemy shooting at them in the early game though? Surely he'll use his ignores cover weapons on your vehicles first and then move onto your mandrakes?

That or he's using stuff like Wyverns - which mow down infantry but not vehicles. or, you know, just basic heavy flamers.

@clever handle wrote:

(b) they're not a melee unit.  They're a sit in 2+ cover unit that fires AI shooting at 18" range


Oh, so they're just a ranged unit pretending to be a melee unit. Got it. Is that why their guns are pathetic and have one of the most useless rules ever printed?
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 06 2015, 21:30

@The Shredder wrote:
@clever handle wrote:

they're not a melee unit.  They're a sit in 2+ cover unit that fires AI shooting at 18" range

Oh, so they're just a ranged unit pretending to be a melee unit. Got it. Is that why their guns are pathetic and have one of the most useless rules ever printed?

As weird as it is, Mandrakes just are better at shooting than they are in close combat.

Off-topic: I'm so going to build mine with the Sisters of Avelorn's bows instead of swords. Razz
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monushka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 09:43

I think 2 groups of mandrakes sitting on objectives with a 2+ cover is the best objective holder we have. They sit there and pop shots off setting infantry units on fire. What else can we ask for for 24 pts.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 12:07

@monushka wrote:
I think 2 groups of mandrakes sitting on objectives with a 2+ cover is the best objective holder we have. They sit there and pop shots off setting infantry units on fire. What else can we ask for for 24 pts.

How about Reavers with better shooting, better h2h combat, nearly same cover save, ACTUAL ARMOR!, extreme high movement speed (so they actually can grab an objective) and just 4 points more?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 12:22

@monushka wrote:
I think 2 groups of mandrakes sitting on objectives with a 2+ cover is the best objective holder we have. They sit there and pop shots off setting infantry units on fire. What else can we ask for for 24 pts.

If the "best objective holder" in the codex can be wiped to a man by a single flamer, lacks objective secured, and has all the assault durability of a wet paper sack, then that codex is in trouble.

I don't think Mandrakes can pull their weight in a competitive setting. Friendly game? Maybe. But a halfway decent opponent will have them neutralized by turn 2 in a tournament game.
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 19:21

@Jimsolo wrote:
@monushka wrote:
I think 2 groups of mandrakes sitting on objectives with a 2+ cover is the best objective holder we have. They sit there and pop shots off setting infantry units on fire. What else can we ask for for 24 pts.

If the "best objective holder" in the codex can be wiped to a man by a single flamer, lacks objective secured, and has all the assault durability of a wet paper sack, then that codex is in trouble.

I don't think Mandrakes can pull their weight in a competitive setting.  Friendly game?  Maybe.  But a halfway decent opponent will have them neutralized by turn 2 in a tournament game.

Pretty sure that's the basis for cultist spam in CSM armies & was the basis for henchmen spam in GK armies before those guys were moved to C:Inquisition... let us not forget imperial guard whose only troop options are T3 5+ save guys, so are also fairly worried about flamers. Oh, and tyranids...

List construction is highly meta dependent, but if you face lots of imperial guard and/or non-farsight tau, then mandrakes are actually better point-for-point, than kabalite warriors - better survivability (because once cover has been stripped, neither choice gets an armor save), and better damage output since their guns will wound troops on 3's instead of 4's.

Saying that mandrakes are useless because they just need to be hit by ignores cover firepower is like saying power armor is useless becuase you only need to be hit by AP3 or better weaponry. Despite what the internet is trying to insist, these weapons just simply aren't that prevalent.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 21:32

theyre not that uncommon either, depending on your meta - i often face stuff that ignores cover

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 21:36

@clever handle wrote:
Pretty sure that's the basis for cultist spam in CSM armies & was the basis for henchmen spam in GK armies before those guys were moved to C:Inquisition... let us not forget imperial guard whose only troop options are T3 5+ save guys, so are also fairly worried about flamers.

All of which are troops.

So, they have objective secured and can easily be spammed without clogging other slots.

Furthermore, I don't know about Cultists, but IG units can offer very good long-range firepower (and good anti-infantry firepower too) and are very cheap. Likewise, you could have 3 Henchmen for about 12pts... in a Razorback. They let you have 6 OS transports for a pittance.

Mandrakes are not cheap and have little offence to offer.
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Jan 07 2015, 21:52

Mandrakes have stealth and shrouded and move through cover. They are able to get into a good position, stay mobile and put out really solid firepower with their Assault 2, 18″, Str4, Ap4, Soublaze shooting.These guys can get into into range or on an objective early. They can be a pretty decent harassing unit.  They went down in price and got better. Remember too - they can outflank. They will beat up weak units like those aforementioned cultists. Just play to their strengths - an I5 mandrake with three attacks onn the charge can hurt weak cc units. Conceivably they can hurt AV 10 vehicles too.

- seriously - outflanking Duckdrakes can work.

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