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Dat_Other_Guy
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 11:58

Man I wish our Hq's could take bikes or skyboards. This would help hellions out significantly. With an he attached, your slowing down a fast unit. In Dark Eldar standards your handicapping yourself. We are a fast army not a durable one. A snake that bites really hard and kills but cannot out attrtion other competitors. Hellions are a "good deal with me now " unit. I find them pretty descent in large squads. If your really into hellions just keep note don't bring more than 2 squads, at that point your just wasting points unless it's for fluff and fun. Don't bother with haemys, as I said, we are alpha strikers not attritioners. Cheers Wink hope that helps
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 12:16

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
Man I wish our Hq's could take bikes or skyboards.

I also find this really annoying.

I'm presuming that it's because GW is too lazy to make models for Archons, Succubi and/or Haemonculi on Jetbikes and Jetboards, and is currently paranoid about copyright-related stuff (to such a degree that the Venom Blade is only available to the two models who have one in their kits).

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
Don't bother with haemys, as I said, we are alpha strikers not attritioners.

I think if you could have a haemonculus on a jetboard, then he would be worth considering - since hellions are in dire need of a survivability boost.
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Tmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 12:30

If they counted as flying creatures it would solve their problems and give us a way to throw a haywire at a flyer
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 12:31

@Tmaster wrote:
If they counted as flying creatures it would solve their problems

Only because the flier rules are broken as hell.
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Dat_Other_Guy
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 12:39

@The Shredder wrote:
@Tmaster wrote:
If they counted as flying creatures it would solve their problems

Only because the flier rules are broken as hell.

I think FMC should be only able to target things in a 180 degree arc. That whole nonsense of flying into deployment and shooting away is dumb. I play Tyranids as well and I think shooting behind the hive tyrant with 12 TL shots is broken. Although I wouldn't complain because Tyranids can barely stand on their own. With that arc, flier rules would no longer be broken. A little OP but not broken.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 12:50

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
I think FMC should be only able to target things in a 180 degree arc. That whole nonsense of flying into deployment and shooting away is dumb. I play Tyranids as well and I think shooting behind the hive tyrant with 12 TL shots is broken. Although I wouldn't complain because Tyranids can barely stand on their own. With that arc, flier rules would no longer be broken. A little OP but not broken.

I think the whole snapshot mechanic is the problem. Fliers should not be able to ignore 84% of incoming fire from the ground, but still be able to shoot at ground targets with no penalties.

I'd replace the current stupidity with a permanent Jink save for fliers (as long as they're not hovering), which doesn't cause them to snapshot.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 12:54

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Tmaster wrote:
If they counted as flying creatures it would solve their problems

Only because the flier rules are broken as hell.

I think FMC should be only able to target things in a 180 degree arc. That whole nonsense of flying into deployment and shooting away is dumb. I play Tyranids as well and I think shooting behind the hive tyrant with 12 TL shots is broken. Although I wouldn't complain because Tyranids can barely stand on their own. With that arc, flier rules would no longer be broken. A little OP but not broken.

Trust me, with the new stuff, Tyranids don't have any problems standing on their own!

Tyrranocytes in particular are a nightmare - any one of their abilities is probably worth their cost, but not only can they drop a ton of gaunts or an MC like a drop pod, conveniently avoiding the need to run across the board, which is what made them manageable, but they get to fire 15 S5 shots, and hold objectives with a T5 6W MC that can move around if it misses the target to start with. Oh yeah, and if you wanna be really nasty, they can carry Tervigons, so not only do you have MC's running round in your deployment zone on turn 2, but those same MC's are spilling out hordes of little guys to clog up your guns too!

I also agree with Shredder - an FMC that can ignore the majority of incoming fire but still fire at full effect in any direction is just busted. perhaps limit the number of weapons that can fire based on distance moved, a bit like tanks (that would also enable you to actually make supersonic relevant for either increasing the number of weapons that could be fired - effectively making them 'fast' flyers or repositioning ready for the next turn).

One thing to remember though - vector striking counts as firing a weapon so if they do that, they can only fire one set of weapons in the shooting phase.

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Dat_Other_Guy
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 13:00

@The Shredder wrote:
@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
I think FMC should be only able to target things in a 180 degree arc. That whole nonsense of flying into deployment and shooting away is dumb. I play Tyranids as well and I think shooting behind the hive tyrant with 12 TL shots is broken. Although I wouldn't complain because Tyranids can barely stand on their own. With that arc, flier rules would no longer be broken. A little OP but not broken.

I think the whole snapshot mechanic is the problem. Fliers should not be able to ignore 84% of incoming fire from the ground, but still be able to shoot at ground targets with no penalties.

I'd replace the current stupidity with a permanent Jink save for fliers (as long as they're not hovering), which doesn't cause them to snapshot.

I see your point but if that's the case the flier will get shot down and what would be the point of bringing it in the first place. I think fliers should get like a 3+ jink but then Twin linked will have no effect. You snap shot in a 90 degree arc. What's also dumb is if a model is in its way and I can't fit my base there my flier is dead? That's ridculous. A flyer isn't going to be stopped by a lone guy on the ground. I think every faction apart from tau, AS and Eldar should get skyfire available at least on one unit. Having to bring fliers to combat fliers is dumb. I know SM have this Smile I didn't mention them. Maybe on our true born, they can buy skyfire for their 2 dark lances. ( on blasters it doesn't make sense, it's like saying a slingshot would bring down a 100 ton aircraft that's about 30,000 feet above ground) I think anything with a range of 24 inches or more could be able to snap shot at a flyer. My flyer died to an infernus pistol. A pistol brought down a flyer. Talk about dumb and illogical.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 13:01

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
Man I wish our Hq's could take bikes or skyboards. This would help hellions out significantly. With an he attached, your slowing down a fast unit. In Dark Eldar standards your handicapping yourself. We are a fast army not a durable one. A snake that bites really hard and kills but cannot out attrtion other competitors. Hellions are a "good deal with me now " unit. I find them pretty descent in large squads. If your really into hellions just keep note don't bring more than 2 squads, at that point your just wasting points unless it's for fluff and fun. Don't bother with haemys, as I said, we are alpha strikers not attritioners. Cheers Wink hope that helps

A large unit of Scourge can get a Foot HQ without problems.

He don't slow down the unit so much
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Dat_Other_Guy
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 13:03

@Cerve wrote:
@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
Man I wish our Hq's could take bikes or skyboards. This would help hellions out significantly. With an he attached, your slowing down a fast unit. In Dark Eldar standards your handicapping yourself. We are a fast army not a durable one. A snake that bites really hard and kills but cannot out attrtion other competitors. Hellions are a "good deal with me now " unit. I find them pretty descent in large squads. If your really into hellions just keep note don't bring more than 2 squads, at that point your just wasting points unless it's for fluff and fun. Don't bother with haemys, as I said, we are alpha strikers not attritioners. Cheers Wink hope that helps

A large unit of Scourge can get a Foot HQ without problems.

He don't slow down the unit so much

Scourges don't need speed Smile that's why I said hellions in particular your fine with footslogging scourges. Their pretty good with the hay wires. Although you can id stick with WWP deep striking. It just makes the unit much more effective.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 13:06

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
I see your point but if that's the case the flier will get shot down and what would be the point of bringing it in the first place.

By that logic, what's the point of bringing any vehicle, which can be shot down or destroyed?

If some fliers need a point drop, fine. Better that than a stupid, boring game mechanic.

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
I think fliers should get like a 3+ jink but then Twin linked will have no effect.

I have no objections to a 3+ Jink as standard, tbh.

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
You snap shot in a 90 degree arc. What's also dumb is if a model is in its way and I can't fit my base there my flier is dead? That's ridculous. A flyer isn't going to be stopped by a lone guy on the ground.

It's because the game was never built for fliers. GW just shorhorned them into the system, regardless of how many stupid situations we ended up with as a result.

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
I think every faction apart from tau, AS and Eldar should get skyfire available at least on one unit. Having to bring fliers to combat fliers is dumb.

I agree, but I think the mechanic is just bad in general. The requirements to kill fliers are just too specific - especially when they can jink as well.

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
My flyer died to an infernus pistol. A pistol brought down a flyer. Talk about dumb and illogical.

One idea I had was that, in addition to jink, fliers would have an effect like the old Night Shields - and count as being 12" further away from firers. To represent that they're actually much higher of the table than their models.
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 19:25

This got off topic, but back to hellions: It was said 2 months ago when the codex dropped but: If you really like hellions - take them as units of (max) 12 beastmasters. Beastmasters are more effective in almost every way:

1) move through cover so they ignore dangerous terrain penalties when clinging to area terrain for a modicum of survivability
2) exact same shooting platform
3) are 1 ppm cheaper!

the only downside is no Helglaive....
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Dat_Other_Guy
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Dec 19 2014, 23:55

@clever handle wrote:
This got off topic, but back to hellions:  It was said 2 months ago when the codex dropped but:  If you really like hellions - take them as units of (max) 12 beastmasters.  Beastmasters are more effective in almost every way:

1) move through cover so they ignore dangerous terrain penalties when clinging to area terrain for a modicum of survivability
2) exact same shooting platform
3) are 1 ppm cheaper!

the only downside is no Helglaive....

Beast packs are amazing. I definitely agree with what clever handle has to say. Although the loss of a 4++ with the Khymera was upsetting, at least they got cheaper.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Dec 20 2014, 00:27

@clever handle wrote:
This got off topic, but back to hellions:  It was said 2 months ago when the codex dropped but:  If you really like hellions - take them as units of (max) 12 beastmasters.  Beastmasters are more effective in almost every way:

1) move through cover so they ignore dangerous terrain penalties when clinging to area terrain for a modicum of survivability
2) exact same shooting platform
3) are 1 ppm cheaper!

the only downside is no Helglaive....

And no deepstriking, unless you attach a character with WWP.

I guess it depends on the amount of terrain which unit will be more effective. On an open field, Hellions are a bit better at avoiding enemy fire. On an urban or forest table though, Beastmasters definitely have an advantage.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Dec 20 2014, 01:22

@clever handle wrote:
This got off topic, but back to hellions:  It was said 2 months ago when the codex dropped but:  If you really like hellions - take them as units of (max) 12 beastmasters.  Beastmasters are more effective in almost every way:

1) move through cover so they ignore dangerous terrain penalties when clinging to area terrain for a modicum of survivability
2) exact same shooting platform
3) are 1 ppm cheaper!

the only downside is no Helglaive....

deepstrike and hammer of wrath


Oh, and most important, Leadership NINE. Beastmasters have 8, and morale checks are one of our weakness.

No, if I take Beastmasters, I take some beasts. For shooting, better Hellions.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Dec 20 2014, 03:05

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Caspaar wrote:
I plan to run Hellions, too Smile. Try SkaredCast's (Skari's) tactic videos on youtube.

Cheers
Caspaar

Ugh. No thank you.

What's your problem with Skari? He's a lovely guy, great tactician and makes awesome videos.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Dec 20 2014, 14:18

@Cerve wrote:
deepstrike and hammer of wrath

Yeah, I forgot all jump infantry can have HoW now.
And Hellions also have Combat Drugs and Hit and Run.
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 00:28

sure, all those things are important if you want to put your T3, 5+ dudes, who lack grenades into combat... oh yeah, HoW at S3 is very effective... hope you didn't need to move 12" to get into charge range if you were looking forward to that.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 10:59

@clever handle wrote:
sure, all those things are important if you want to put your T3, 5+ dudes, who lack grenades into combat... oh yeah, HoW at S3 is very effective... hope you didn't need to move 12" to get into charge range if you were looking forward to that.

HoW means an additional attack at Initiative 10. That can very well make a difference, and so can Combat Drugs (especially +1 Strength or +1 Toughness).

No grenades? You don't need any if you charge a unit that is already locked in combat, or has gone to ground. And GEQs usually don't have much left to hit you with after 10-20 AP 5 Poison shots anyway.

In my oppinion, the biggest problem assault units currently have is that everyone expects them to be able to charge MEQs headlong, sweep/tarpit them, ignoring overwatch and difficult terrain, and all who can't do that are considered entirely useless.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 11:54

Quote :
In my oppinion, the biggest problem assault units currently have is that everyone expects them to be able to charge MEQs headlong, sweep/tarpit them, ignoring overwatch and difficult terrain, and all who can't do that are considered entirely useless.

While this is true to an extent, the problem is more "we have an initiation issue"

This lines it up pretty much:

Quote :
No grenades? You don't need any if you charge a unit that is already locked in combat, or has gone to ground.

So Hellions are supposed to charge a unit that is already locked in combat? Who isnt?
Wyches? Same issue. You need to charge a unit that is already locked in combat.
Incubi? Same here...
Reavers? Also need the unit already locked up.
Beastmasters/Beasts? Same game.
Wracks? Yep, they need to join in too.

That leaves us basically with Talos, Cronos and Grots als initiators. The first 2 are terribly slow and will probably never get to your desired target. Grots on Raiders are fast and good intiators. but they dont need any help. Every unit they would need help with either obliterates them very quickly or is so powerful that any "help" from the squishy units above would only add to the enemys combat score.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 15:40

Rokuro, yes, I expect a valid assault to be able to handle MEQ in assault, either through offense, defense, or weight of numbers.  Hellions fail in every regard.

I was thinking about running a FOR.  Pack it full of Hellions, then fill the ramparts with Eldar with range.  (Rangers and Reapers?) They can out shoot anything at a distance, and anything that tries to close has to eat through the Hellions who can boil out as a speed bump.  

@Timatron wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
@Caspaar wrote:
I plan to run Hellions, too Smile. Try SkaredCast's (Skari's) tactic videos on youtube.

Cheers
Caspaar

Ugh. No thank you.

What's your problem with Skari? He's a lovely guy, great tactician and makes awesome videos.

I find tactical videos to be useless (written format is a far better method) in general, and Skari rubs me the wrong way in specific.  His presentation just rubs me the wrong way.


Last edited by Jimsolo on Sun Dec 21 2014, 18:13; edited 1 time in total
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 17:38

Quote :
Reavers? Also need the unit already locked up.

Reavers do not need. They HoW strike at I10 and they can use jink on overwatch. They are initiators too, and their speed can do it anywhere.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 18:50

Quote :
Reavers do not need. They HoW strike at I10 and they can use jink on overwatch.

Wow. Space Marine Bikes also HoW at I10 and S4. I dont know why people are so adamant about how impressive a single S4 rending hit is.
Either you play them in MSU where they get 3 HoW hits done or you play them big and see them obliterated by anything with "ignore cover" without ever going to CC.
Yes they can jink on overwatch and then use their impressive 5+ armor in melee.
For "no nades" units to get their original I score they have to attack something which was already locked in combat the round before. You dont want your jetbikes to stay in combat that long.

And even IF you consider taking Reavers to initiate for Hellions... why bother taking Helions then and not just "more Reavers"? They are in the same Slot after all...


Last edited by Klaivex Charondyr on Sun Dec 21 2014, 19:47; edited 1 time in total
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 19:00

Am I the only one shocked that there are three (and counting) forum pages devoted to Hellions?  Because even if you are not sold on Reavers, surely, one can find a better use of the FA slot than Hellions...
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Dec 21 2014, 20:02

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
So Hellions are supposed to charge a unit that is already locked in combat? Who isnt?
Wyches? Same issue. You need to charge a unit that is already locked in combat.

Uhm... Wyches have Plasma Grenades. Or is it an overwatch-related issue with them?


Last edited by Rokuro on Sun Dec 21 2014, 21:52; edited 3 times in total
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