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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 00:07

So, I recognize how bad they are, but are they worthless? I have twenty five or thirty of them, and I'd hate for them to go to waste.
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Ispa
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 01:40

they are not worthless by anymeans. They are just unfortunatley the weakest option in an awesome fast attack slot.

Scourge, Reavers, Razorwing Fighter are the hellions weakness.

IMO i would like to see wyches removed and replaced by hellions as troops for whych cult (are hellions classed as whych cult???) but then you would need to buff the hell out of bloodbrides (only far enough to make them a half decent assualt unit)...oh and change thee name from bloodbride to whyches Razz

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 01:50

A lot of fast, poisoned shots. That's all.

If you need it, you can think about a list with theme.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 03:38

Yeah, I thought about a theme list, but I'm wondering if there's a useful way to put them in an army and still be competitive.

I miss the Baron and the Duke.
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Idealbroom
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 05:28

WWP 20 in for 40 sudden poisoned shots? lol
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 05:59

I thought about it, actually. Honestly, with their strength they can still threaten most vehicles in assault, which makes me think a huge mob of them might just wear the enemy down.

I've also thought about an MSU build, just spamming 5-6 units of 5 and trusting on one or two units to get through and the rest to absorb the enemy's fire until my heavy hitters can close in.
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 06:27

if you are going to bring helions I suggest 1 big blob. MSU fills slots and they are going to get picked off by bolter fire. But yes the wwp would be fun. Maybe with a Haemon so at least they get 5+fnp

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 07:05

@Ispa wrote:

IMO i would like to see wyches removed...

NEVAH! Smile
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 07:14

Agreed with agatha that is heresy. I just want Wych Formations.

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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 08:02

I plan to run Hellions, too Smile. Try SkaredCast's (Skari's) tactic videos on youtube.

Cheers
Caspaar
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 12:39

@Caspaar wrote:
I plan to run Hellions, too Smile. Try SkaredCast's (Skari's) tactic videos on youtube.

Cheers
Caspaar

Ugh. No thank you.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 12:43

@Jimsolo wrote:
So, I recognize how bad they are, but are they worthless?  I have twenty five or thirty of them, and I'd hate for them to go to waste.

Objectively, yes, they are worthless.

The problem is that they don't really do anything that other units can't do better.

Fast Movement? Reavers are faster in the same slot. Beasts are the same speed,
Poison Shooting? the rest of our army says 'hi'.
Good in CC? Hah! How many good melee units do you know that have one attack each? Is the answer 'none'? I'm guessing the answer is 'none'.
Survivable? Not in the slightest.

Obviously someone on the GW design team lost to these guys all the time in 6th, and decided it was time for some revenge.

This is not to say you can't use them. Just that there really isn't another word for a unit that is worse than all competing units. And, even if they were the only FA choice we had, I still don't think they'd be taken because they're just do much.

@Ispa wrote:

IMO i would like to see wyches removed and replaced by hellions as troops for whych cult (are hellions classed as whych cult???)

Why do we need to lose wyches? Can't we just have both as troops?

@Ispa wrote:
but then you would need to buff the hell out of bloodbrides (only far enough to make them a half decent assualt unit)...oh and change thee name from bloodbride to whyches Razz

Bloodbrides are in dire need of a buff anyway. They're currently a dedicated melee unit that sucks badly at melee, and are only barely better at it than one of our troop choices (which, for the record, also sucks and is in dire need of a buff).
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 14:19

Hellions- Great concept, no feasibility.

There is no reason to take them unless you "just want to" and in that case, just take them. You can polish this turd, but it's still a turd.


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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 18:04

They are very good in kill team games.

Kabalite Venom and Hellions on the rest of points is a very solid kill team list.

Kabalites in Venom is a very solid take, and Hellions complement them just nicely. They are cheap for what they do.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Dec 16 2014, 23:01

@Azdrubael wrote:
They are very good in kill team games.

Kabalite Venom and Hellions on the rest of points is a very solid kill team list.

Kabalites in Venom is a very solid take, and Hellions complement them just nicely. They are cheap for what they do.

I may look into that.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Dec 17 2014, 21:38

Hellions can actually be useful, as long as you keep in mind that they are a throwing knife rather than a hammer.
They can make quick work of heavy weapon teams and even weaker HQ units. Just imagin a Tau player's reaction when a Helliarch with Stun Claw swoops in and challenges his Ethereal that he kept hiding in the back field.
Situational, certainly, but not useless.


Some more fun-facts about Hellions:

* They may not have a dedicated transport option, but a squad of 5 Hellions can totally embark on an empty Raider - or even on a Wave Serpent, if you have Eldar allies. Being jump infantry, Hellions are Bulky, but (Dark) Eldar transporters don't exclude models with that rule like Rhinos do.

* A Helliarch's Splinter Pistol is purely decorative. He can only fire one weapon per turn, and the glider's Splinter Pod is superior in every regard. Also, he comes preequipped with a close combat weapon and a Hellion Glaive, and all weapon options only replace the latter, so he would have the additional attack anyway.

* If an Eldar Exarch was to successfully use the Disarming Strike ability on a Helliarch with Hellion Glaive, he would give him -1 Strength, but +1 Attack! Why? Because Disarming Strike reduces special close combat weapons to basic ones, and as stated above, Hellions are preequipped with a basic close combat weapon. With the Glaive also turned into one, he would then have two.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Dec 17 2014, 22:07

@Rokuro wrote:
Hellions can actually be useful, as long as you keep in mind that they are a throwing knife rather than a hammer.
They can make quick work of heavy weapon teams and even weaker HQ units. Just imagin a Tau player's reaction when a Helliarch with Stun Claw swoops in and challenges his Ethereal that he kept hiding in the back field.

Any reason you couldn't do this with Reavers or Beasts?

@Rokuro wrote:

* They may not have a dedicated transport option, but a squad of 5 Hellions can totally embark on an empty Raider - or even on a Wave Serpent, if you have Eldar allies. Being jump infantry, Hellions are Bulky, but (Dark) Eldar transporters don't exclude models with that rule like Rhinos do.

And the point of this is...?

I mean, it's like having the option to embark bricks on Raiders. There's just better things they could be carrying...

@Rokuro wrote:

* A Helliarch's Splinter Pistol is purely decorative. He can only fire one weapon per turn, and the glider's Splinter Pod is superior in every regard. Also, he comes preequipped with a close combat weapon and a Hellion Glaive, and all weapon options only replace the latter, so he would have the additional attack anyway.

Eh...?

I really don't understand the point you're making here. If the Helliarch is using his Glaive, then he won't have an extra attack because it's a two-handed weapon. If he's not using the glaive, then he's got an extra attack, but all his attacks are at S3. Excuse me if I'm not jumping for joy. I guess you could give him a special weapon, but frankly I wouldn't touch any of his options with a barge-pole.

Also, it still doesn't solve the problem of the rest of his squad only having 1 attack apiece.

@Rokuro wrote:

* If an Eldar Exarch was to successfully use the Disarming Strike ability on a Helliarch with Hellion Glaive, he would give him -1 Strength, but +1 Attack! Why? Because Disarming Strike reduces special close combat weapons to basic ones, and as stated above, Hellions are preequipped with a basic close combat weapon. With the Glaive also turned into one, he would then have two.


Well thank God for that. Because that's always been my worry when facing Eldar - not Wave Serpents, not Wraith Knights, not War Walkers, not incredible psychic powers, not Jetbike Seer Councils. No, my main fear was always an Exarch using disarming strike on a squad sergeant.

Thank you for finally providing me with a solution. I'm sure my hellion army will just roll over my Eldar opponents. Rolling Eyes


PS: Sorry, I think I went slightly overboard on the sarcasm. silent
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Dec 17 2014, 22:36

@The Shredder wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
Hellions can actually be useful, as long as you keep in mind that they are a throwing knife rather than a hammer.
They can make quick work of heavy weapon teams and even weaker HQ units. Just imagin a Tau player's reaction when a Helliarch with Stun Claw swoops in and challenges his Ethereal that he kept hiding in the back field.

Any reason you couldn't do this with Reavers or Beasts?

My Reavers aren't fully assembled yet. In theory though, they should be better at shooting tanks in the rear or ramming into GEQ squads.
I will probably use my Hellions as Beastmasters most of the time, but I wanted to test what else I could do with them, and was pleasantly surprised. A Helliarch with Stun Claw certainly makes for a better assassin than a Beastmaster (admittedly though, the character he killed in my test game was a Platoon Commander, not an Ethereal).

@The Shredder wrote:
Eh...?

I really don't understand the point you're making here.

No real point. That second part was just some funny trivia I found out about while testing my Hellions. Very Happy
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Wed Dec 17 2014, 23:08

Hellions in Raiders might not be as awful as it sounds. You've certainly give me something to think about, Rokuro. The corollary to that is that they can get into buildings, which wasn't something I had considered.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Thu Dec 18 2014, 05:38

Put them in a bastion with an escape hatch for late game objectives grapping.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Thu Dec 18 2014, 06:53

I won a FoR in a tourney some time back. I could pack a bunch of em in there...

Speaking of, I wonder if clustering several units around Void Shields might improve their survivability.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Thu Dec 18 2014, 07:38

I tried my Void Shield generater in my very first DE game against AM. 4 auto-cannon shots equalled 3 dead void shields. Bummer. But generally speaking, I think it is a very sound 100 point investment for DE, completely negating at the very minimum the first 3 vehicle-destroying shots comming their way. I was very unlucky in my example above. Through an entire game, you will get a total of about 7-8 shields, and it is scoring, so have it stand near an objective.
It is very dangerous against fast assault armies. They will get to you fast, and you will have to do the DE thing and skim away... Then suddenly you are the one firing into the shields.... not so cool....
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Thu Dec 18 2014, 07:48

People make mistakes. Game designers are people. Quite frankly we can muse how to use them effectively, but all we will do is dealing with other man mistake, born of ill understanding and incompetence.

Thats a sad fact but looks like it is a fact.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Thu Dec 18 2014, 15:17

@Rokuro wrote:

My Reavers aren't fully assembled yet. In theory though, they should be better at shooting tanks in the rear or ramming into GEQ squads.
I will probably use my Hellions as Beastmasters most of the time, but I wanted to test what else I could do with them, and was pleasantly surprised. A Helliarch with Stun Claw certainly makes for a better assassin than a Beastmaster (admittedly though, the character he killed in my test game was a Platoon Commander, not an Ethereal).

I don't want to dampen your spirits, but Platoon Commanders are among the worst melee models in the game - WS4, S3 T3, I3, 1 wound etc.

Obviously your Helliarch might still do well against more formidable targets, but I wouldn't judge his assassination capabilities by his ability to kill a Platoon Sergeant. Wink

@Rokuro wrote:
No real point. That second part was just some funny trivia I found out about while testing my Hellions. Very Happy

Ah, I see.

Sorry, I thought you were giving us reasons to play them - and that just seemed like a really bizarre reason. Razz


Out of interest, how many Hellions do you run in your squad?
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Thu Dec 18 2014, 19:27

@The Shredder wrote:
Sorry, I thought you were giving us reasons to play them - and that just seemed like a really bizarre reason. Razz

No problem. Wink

@The Shredder wrote:
Out of interest, how many Hellions do you run in your squad?

Only 5. I didn't want to buy more before I know what they could actually do on the table.
The main reason I bought them in the first place was for the Realspace Raiders detachment. Hellion tax, so to say.
But I also have a nice conversion in mind for them...
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