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 Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.

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Wych
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PostSubject: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 16:28

So I've been running a shooty Archon for probably a year and a half now. Mainly because we can't really create a "beat stick." It's more like a beat twig, it can cause some serious damage but it'll probably snap in half after one use. In 6th, the choice was obvious who to pair him with. Four Trueborn with blasters. This created the best weapon synergy and fit perfectly in a venom.

To be fair, I've been rather lazy with list building in 7th, I just packed 5 trueborn and the archon on a raider. But as I was reviewing the codex again I started to wonder if maybe Sslyth were now the optimal choice for a shooty archon.

The best thing about trueborn is they keep the same weapon. You point that unit at a tank and bam, 5 darklight shots. It's going to cause some serious damage.

What do Sslyth bring though?

First you can fit them into a Venom. Arguably that's better than a Raider. All depends on the list of course as a Raider isn't bad, but to be fair, I think I'd like my archon on a transport with nightshields and an invulnerable save.

Second, shardcabines are also 18" in range. Now granted, this isn't a tank hunting unit anymore. But your archon is still BS 6 if you want to pop a shot at a tank. On the other hand if you want to target marines or terminators, you basically have 1 instant kill shot and 12 poison shots.

Third, T5 and 8 more wounds. This is your warlord, he's worth victory points. Any weapon will chew through exposed trueborn. But 2 wound T5 FnP models will take a larger beating. They're not as good of bodygaurds as grots but they fit on a venom and they can shoot!

Fourth, he may not be a beatstick but assaulting is actually an option. Give your archon a power sword(I miss venom blades *sigh*) and haywire grenades and this unit can threaten non-assault units and vehicles once grounded. (not sure if I'd want to spend the extra points but it is an option). On vehicles that's what? 16 S5 attacks on rear armor?

Fifth, it's cheaper. At 15 points cheaper it actually pays for the power sword mentioned earlier.

So, to compare, with trueborn you have a unit capable of taking down just about any vehicle on the board that isn't flying. With a Raider you're looking at 6 darklight shots.

With Sslyth on a venom you have a unit that pumps out 24 poison shots, and one dark light shot. But, your warlord is now riding around on a transport with a 3+ cover save and 5+ invulnerable. He's also now T5 and assault capable.

The utility of the Sslyth has me wanting to replace my Trueborn because at the end of the day, you want your warlord to survive the fight. The Dark Eldar player in me though wants to make Land Raiders cry.

Which does the community think is better, or am I missing a better unit to pair a shooty Archon with entirely?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 16:38

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
am I missing a better unit to pair a shooty Archon with entirely?

Sadly my answer is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent! Chuck in a WWP and it has yet to fail me.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 16:44

1. Venoms don't get nightshields now.
2. Archon is BS7

It's more of a one-shot wonder, but ever tried Scourges and a Webway portal? I've used a blast pistol archon with heat lance scourges and webway (and of course the shadowfield) once and the potential is just awesome, particularly against vehicle squadrons. You could (theoretically at least) be taking out an entire leman russ squadron in a single turn. With the right rolls you could also use this loadout to take down a baneblade in a single turn. or (as happened to me the first turn I tried it) you could miss with two of the scourges and fail to pen with everything else. But the potential!

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barenone
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 16:47

Do 1 of each, Advantage of a cheap model army is we can do both and not break the bank.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 17:19

Sorry if this is a silly question, but might a Haemonculus make a better shooty HQ?

Obviously the Archon is better if you're combining him with trueborn, but if you're considering Sslyth, it seems like the Haemonculus' weapon options (Liquifier Gun or Hexrifle), have a little more synergy with their weapons. The former helps against infantry, whilst the latter is another poison shot - but with rending, precision shot and a chance of ID (also BS5).

Also, with an Archon, your warlord is a T3 model with a negligible save. One wound from a multilaser or power maul and he's gone. And, adding a Shadowfield ups his price considerably. On the other hand, whilst he may not have the protection of a Shadowfield, T4 and FNP makes the Haemonculus much more resilient, without upgrades. Also, in terms of joining combat, he has Scissorhand - which gives him a reasonable edge against most targets, whilst being cheap enough that you're not wasting a lot of points if he doesn't use it.

Just thought I'd throw that possibility out there.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
So I've been running a shooty Archon for probably a year and a half now. Mainly because we can't really create a "beat stick." It's more like a beat twig, it can cause some serious damage but it'll probably snap in half after one use.

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 17:28

I think the point is that by combining with Sslyth, he becomes majority toughness 5 for being wounded, even if S6 would still kill him outright if he takes a wound from it.

I personally wouldn't class an hq with a template weapon as 'shooty' though - they'd have to get close enough to get charged anyways, and if you're thinking of doing that, medusae would be the way to go, since their templates are way better than a liquifier's

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 18:01

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I think the point is that by combining with Sslyth, he becomes majority toughness 5 for being wounded, even if S6 would still kill him outright if he takes a wound from it.

Indeed, but I'd still be wary of a Warlord with so little personal protection, if you see what I mean.

But, that's just how I look at it.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I personally wouldn't class an hq with a template weapon as 'shooty' though - they'd have to get close enough to get charged anyways

I don't see the problem. Surely a "shooty" HQ is simply one who does more damage at range than in combat? I wasn't aware that there was a minimum range. And, if there is, doesn't the Haemonculus still win with the Hexrifle? Wink

Also, in my experience, 18" is *far* from safe. There are a lot of units that can easily make that charge.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
and if you're thinking of doing that, medusae would be the way to go, since their templates are way better than a liquifier's

Depends if you want a Character Warlord or not, I suppose. I mean, you could always stick the Haemonculus with the Medusae - if you want lots of templates over resilience.
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Wed 10 Dec 2014 - 18:18

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Sadly my answer is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent! Chuck in a WWP and it has yet to fail me.

Eww. Just eww. I meant from our codex. Regular Eldar make me throw up in my mouth a bit.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
1. Venoms don't get nightshields now.
2. Archon is BS7

It's more of a one-shot wonder, but ever tried Scourges and a Webway portal? I've used a blast pistol archon with heat lance scourges and webway (and of course the shadowfield) once and the potential is just awesome, particularly against vehicle squadrons. You could (theoretically at least) be taking out an entire leman russ squadron in a single turn. With the right rolls you could also use this loadout to take down a baneblade in a single turn. or (as happened to me the first turn I tried it) you could miss with two of the scourges and fail to pen with everything else. But the potential!

Whoops. That'll teach me for not consulting the Archon  or venom profiles before I have an idea. Even so. 4+ is good and BS7 is even better. I will say your idea is awesome. Sounds fun as hell. But I imagine that unit gets smeared the following turn.

@The Shredder wrote:
Sorry if this is a silly question, but might a Haemonculus make a better shooty HQ?

If he cost as much as he used to, and not as an much as an ancient. Now he costs 10 more points than an Archon. Also the damage output for the hexrifle is not that great. The archon gets to reroll to hit, and a blaster is ID on anything T4, doesn't even have to roll a 6. The haemonculus is more survivable for sure, but I feel like the archon can actually do something, and with Sslyth bodyguards might also have the potential to survive an enemies onslaught. The Sslyth are mainly there to support the archon. It's not their weapons, but their wounds and toughness. Afterall if I want blasterborn I can still field them separate. If the target can be poisoned all the better. Remember the Archon can also use the cheaper clonefield, which I might opt to use. The only time my achon should be taking wounds is if his transport and entire bodyguard is destroyed, or in close combat, and I can live with a 4++.

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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 12:32

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
If he cost as much as he used to, and not as an much as an ancient. Now he costs 10 more points than an Archon.

I miss the old mini-haemonculi. And the old Liquifier Gun, for that matter. Sad

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Also the damage output for the hexrifle is not that great. The archon gets to reroll to hit, and a blaster is ID on anything T4, doesn't even have to roll a 6.

True.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
The haemonculus is more survivable for sure, but I feel like the archon can actually do something, and with Sslyth bodyguards might also have the potential to survive an enemies onslaught. The Sslyth are mainly there to support the archon. It's not their weapons, but their wounds and toughness. Afterall if I want blasterborn I can still field them separate. If the target can be poisoned all the better. Remember the Archon can also use the cheaper clonefield, which I might opt to use. The only time my achon should be taking wounds is if his transport and entire bodyguard is destroyed, or in close combat, and I can live with a 4++.

Fair enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:02

@The Shredder wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
If he cost as much as he used to, and not as an much as an ancient. Now he costs 10 more points than an Archon.

I miss the old mini-haemonculi. And the old Liquifier Gun, for that matter. Sad

While I said I've been running a shooty archon for a year and a half that is actually not true. About 6 months before the new codex came out I actually ran a Hammie with three trueborn carrying splinter cannons. Which was 44 points cheaper than the current shooty archon loadout I'm talking about and double the range. Now THAT's a shooty HQ for cheap. But alas, codex changes, time moves on. I used a shooty archon before I discovered that combo. And yeah, the Haemonculus was better before the new dex.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Best Retinue for a Shooty Archon.   Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:10

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
While I said I've been running a shooty archon for a year and a half that is actually not true. About 6 months before the new codex came out I actually ran a Hammie with three trueborn carrying splinter cannons. Which was 44 points cheaper and double the range. Now THAT's a shooty HQ for cheap.

Heh, that's quite an interesting combination.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
But yeah, codex changes, time moves on. I used a shooty archon before I discovered that combo. And yeah, the Haemonculus was better before the new dex.

With regard to the new Haemonculi, I feel they should have access to either Clone Fields or T5. If we're going to be forced to take the expensive version, at least let us make him a bit more durable if we want to.
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