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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue May 19 2015, 22:23

Naturally credit would be more than forthcoming. Just gotta actually make plans.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 20 2015, 03:37

I'm going to win adepticon with a list of only Ork grots.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 20 2015, 04:47

well that would be impressive.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 21 2015, 00:28

So we want to win at maelstorm missions and we want to play a list that has no gargantuan creatures, no d weapons, no real cheese.

Windrider Host: 918
Farseer - Skyrunner - Shard of Anaris - Spirit Stone of Anath’Lan
7 Jetlocks - 1 Singing Spear
3x 3 Shuribikes
3 Vypers - Shuriken Cannons

Wraith-construct 930
6x Wraithlord - 2 Brightlances - 2 Flamers - Ghostglaive

So I need a host to field the constructs. I might bas well run a truncated seer council. Only one farseer, no Baharroth or second seer but it is fearless has some punch and will back up the meat and potatoes - SIX MCs.

With a war host you gain:
Matchless Agility - always count as rolling 6 when running
Tempest of Blades - all units gain shred on shuri weapons for one turn.

Well the tempest of blades is okay so we will try and mazimize its efect - you have some shuri weapons for your one time shred. Still it is best as an alpha strike usage when you are at full strength. It gives me a reason to consider the necessary vyper and even add two. At least they shred for a turn IF they survive. Also I would rather have you shooting at them then at my other prime targets. One is a bit annoying like a mosquito - three have to be dealt with like angry wasps.

Matchless ability though will get your wraithlords 12" up table turn one. This is big. You will be in control of mid table. You will get to objectives easily. They are durable. The wraithlords are T8 with 18 wounds between them. The ghostglaive is no-brainer with smash having been nerfed for 7ed. And this guy is a character - challenge away with the glaive. Go after P-fists and claws. Wraithlords are significantly more durable than a lot of other units and is a great counter to deep strikers in CC. He's just an all round badass.  And he is good platform to get those BLs that Eldar need on the ground.

Now you have no dedicated AA to speak of. But you do have 12 Brightlance shots that will make flyers and FMCs jink. The list can handle Meq, Teq and AT duties fine. It has only 26 models on the table so it is very elite. But it is mobile and hard to kill so you are not removing units that fast. Fortune, conceal and invisibility will help this list.

So do you like this list? Comments welcome.

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Last edited by egorey on Sun May 31 2015, 05:27; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 21 2015, 09:08

I've been thinking about taking Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers for bikes, but 36" range speaks in Scatterbikes favor. That Shread once a game might turn it to cannons favor iof opponent is likely to bring Gargantuans to game. Still 36+2D6 is a good distance when keepeng those bikes alive and ot of combat.

Othervice I like the list. And the look on opponents face when he/she realises 6 Wriathlords Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 21 2015, 09:25

Yea it's a good list. It plays like a proper obj grabbing list should. You've got your big scary unit that controls mid and your fast scoring. The opponent can focus on either one but either way their decision is going to bite them in the butt. My concern, like you've pointed out, is model count. I would shoot the scoring off the table first and then worry about the Lords as the turns dictate. I love Eldar Psychic I'm just not exactly sure that this is the place to put it, that is a lot of points. Is it a good list? Yes, Can you be Successful? Absolutely! But I see it as the list is trying to do 3 things, does 1 really well and 2 kind of well. When in reality it could do 2 things really well. Once those bikes start jinking you really just have them scoring and weight of shots will win in the end. The lords are definitely a force to be reckoned with. That being said, obviously it is easy to pick out situations where any list is going to falter. It is definitely a high pressure list which might just outweigh the model count, which is where I think you're trying to go.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 21 2015, 13:18

My thoughts are to construct lists that are challenging and fun to play without being labeled a waac gamer at your LGS and still being able to compete at a larger venue. The list is built with considerations to what a tournament might or might not restrict - limited formations, no d weapons, no FW  and no LoWs. This is the Eldar list. I also have a Nid list following similar parameters. However with Nids I do use FW.

Single CAD

2x Flyrant - 2 Devourers - Egrubs - 1 Fighter Ace

Malanthrope

Malanthrope
Tyrannocyte

Lictor

Tervigon - Miasma Cannon - Egrubs
Tyrannocyte

30 Termagants

Dimachaeron
Tyrannocyte

Toxicrene
Tyrannocyte

Imperial Bastion - Comms Relay

Once again I use less of the perceived 'broken' units. No barbed hierodule. Only two flyrants. But it has NINE MCs albeit tyrannocytes cannot charge (they can be charged though). Again it is a very elite list relying on durability and DSing pods.

The Tervigon should be the first target. He spawns troops and that means ObSec unless stopped. However, he is not going to drop in by himself and has some mobile cover with all those tyrannocytes and a malanthrope (that do not mishap, btw). The Miasma Cannon is a great purchase for a Tervigon, especially for a solo Tervigon used as a scoring unit. The Miasma Cannon gives the Tervigon a nice, if inaccurate, long ranged weapon, but the real value comes in its Poisoned (2+) AP4 template. Combine this with a Thorax Biomorph and a Tervigon camping on a midfield objective can literally shred through any infantry unit that tries to pry the objective away from it.

The Toxicrene is a decent horde controller, has a nice 2+ poisoned ( with a 12" range if needed) as well and is essentially another miasma cannon in the enemy'sd deployment zone that can go after troublesome units. He comes shrouded. He can get armourbane. He is excellent in assault. Along with a Dima these two units are a fearsome tag team. The Toxi also can ID anything out.

It has similar weaknesses to the first list and similar strengths.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sat May 23 2015, 01:09

Yes well, I should probably read back into the posts more often as opposed to just looking at a list so I can get the intent. Hey I just play A Devils Advocate naturally! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun May 24 2015, 17:12

Ok, so I'm presenting a list for your consideration. Going with Eldar, without using Strength D at all. Primarily designed for Eternal War missions, but certainly capable of Maelstrom, and following the common tournament rule of no more than 2 sources.

Detachments:
Combined Arms Detachment & Craftworld Warhost(Guardian Stormhost, Aspect Shrine(+1WS), and Outcasts)

HQs:
Farseer w/ Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan 115 (CAD)
Farseer 100 (Guardian Stormhost)

Elites:
3x5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner 255 (Aspect Shrine +1 WS)

Troops:
5x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Scatter Lasers 405 (CAD)
2x8 Storm Guardians w/ 2 fusion guns, 2 power swords & Warlock with singing spear 224 (Stormhost)
1x8 Storm Guardians w/ 2 flamers and 2 power swords 72 (Stormhost)
1x5 Rangers 65 (Outcasts)

Fast Attack:
Vyper w/ Dual Cannons 50 (Stormhost)

Heavy Support:
3x3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries w/Vibro Cannons 270 (CAD)
1x3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries w/Vibro Cannons 90 (Stormhost)
War Walker w/ Dual EMLs 90 (Stormhost)

Fortification:
Aegis Defense line w/Quad Gun 100(CAD)

Total: 1836

Both farseers hide in the vibro cannon batteries for T7 vs shooting, and take guide and prescience without having to roll, so all 4 units of vibro cannons will be twin-linked. The vibro cannons will be set up behind the aegis for an extra layer of protection against AP3 or better weapons. They'll pump out an average of 9 S9 AP2 HITS per round, not shots. Another 2 S8, AP3 hits, and the farseer fires the quad gun at BS 5.

The flamer storm guardians sit behind the aegis between the two supergroups of vibro cannons as a counter assault unit. They'll double flame and assault any unit that comes close enough to threaten the vibros in melee. Against an army with lots of assault options, a banshee unit will likely also be held back.

The other 2 guardian units with singing spear warlocks and fusion guns will battle-focus around 12" per turn taking out vehicles and transports, possibly assaulting any units that come out to tie them up in melee.

The howling banshees, in concert with the storm guardians, push across the table acting as a melee screen, engaging foot units that get dumped out of their transports from vibro cannons, fusion guns, and scatter lasers.

The 5 MSU units of scatterbikes hang behind the melee screening units dumping their 60 S6 shots into infantry or light vehicles every turn, staying back until it's time to score.

Dual EML war walker and Quad Gun provide the minimum anti-air element. The vyper and rangers are extras, though with their rending shots they will focus on high T targets if and when they present themselves.

The melee elements in this army aren't going to utterly destroy costly melee specific special characters, but they're more than a match for most other utility characters. Howling banshee Exarchs, with 2 wounds and attacking with WS 6, and S5 are potent against most challengers. Further, they cause the unit they're attacking to take fear tests at -2 leadership, so about 50-60% of the time, they'll be fighting against WS 1 unless the target is fearless. The storm guardians are mainly for taking out vehicles, but in a pinch, will be able to melee against non-melee units, or tie up melee units long enough for banshees to come in for cleanup.

The idea of the list is to tie up and thin the enemy army enough that by the time it's time to capture objectives and end the game, they can't put up a solid defense against the obsec jetbikes with 48" movement.



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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun May 24 2015, 18:20

Banshees need a ride.
Also prefer shadow weavers over vibro cannons by far.
Warwalkers with dual starcannons outflanking is win. Or dual scattters.

Otherwise i like it.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun May 24 2015, 21:12

Banshees now get 15 inches of movement in any turn they're not assaulting, and now have an assault threat range of 21 inches.(15 inch assault, plus 6 inch movement).

They weren't going to assault first turn, even if they had a ride, and without one, they'll assault by turn 2 anyhow.

As for the vibro cannons, I'd really like you to do me a favor. Plug 2 vibro cannons and a guide/prescience farseer into any list you've got, and use it. Make sure you guide and prescience the batteries every turn as long as there are 3 guns left, and organise them with a couple guardians out in front of each gun battery as ablative wounds behind the aegis defense line. They're super difficult to hurt behind an aegis(T7 with 4+ cover/3+armor), and each battery puts out 3 S9 AP2 shots 90% of the time. Their role is to crack the hard nuts first(AV12+), then to provide additional support against light vehicles, elite infantry, and hordes with their pinning shots. When twin-linked, they're the most versatile of the Vaul's options.

I think, when you've actually used the vibro cannons while twin-linked, you'll change your mind. They're REALLY effective. It's pretty rare that you don't get three S9 AP2 hits, and when you do, you got 2 S8 AP3 hits instead.

While shadow weavers are good, I've had TONS of experience with both of them. I pretty much run artillery in every list I make using Eldar, and I've never seen shadow weavers outperform twin-linked vibro cannons. They're just not as reliable in what kind of targets they'll damage, and when using the multiple barrage rules, you can get screwed if your initial blast scatters too far.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun May 24 2015, 22:51

The ride is not to make them mobile, it's to prevent them from being shot off the table before they can assault.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Mon May 25 2015, 00:28

Deamon wrote:
The ride is not to make them mobile, it's to prevent them from being shot off the table before they can assault.

Yeah, I get that, but my point was they have 15 inches of movement with which to get to cover before they're protected the following turn by being in combat anyhow.

And if the opponent shoots some footsloggers, they shoot some footsloggers. I'm not going to pay 110+ points to protect an 85 point unit. I'll just buy a second 85 point unit and keep the change. If you wanted to, you could drop 3 units of scatterbikes and buy 3 more units of banshees w/Executioner Exarchs if you don't feel like you have enough melee to make it through.

They all autorun 9 inches whenever they make run moves, and get +3 to assault distances while being immune to overwatch. They're pretty mobile to find cover, and pretty good at making it into melee now.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Mon May 25 2015, 18:06

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/11218195_10206978977461689_7952982382021370627_o.jpg

As we discussed recently cc lists are making a comeback. Of course you do need some ranged attack to bolster it.

Skitarii Maniple 1010

2x 10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Arc Rifle
2x 3 Sydonian Dragoons
5 Skitarii Infiltators - Taser Goads - Flechette Pistols - Phaser Goad
Onager Dune Crawler - Neutron Laser
Onager Dune Crawler - Icarus Array  

Oathsworn Detachment: 840

Knight Warden - Melta - Stormshield Rocket Pod
Knight Paladin - Melta - Stormshield Rocket Pod 

Now bear in mind that we now have units with scout - dunestrider - relentless. Turn two everything is in assault range. Turn one you fire down table. This is an aggressive list by nature. It is a high pressure effective melee list with speed. Even the vanguard will help if they join a melee - they reduce toughness by one.  The trick is to pick the correct doctrine imperative each turn. Do we improve the BS or WS? Turn one we always go for the extra BS (pun intended).

Dragoons take advantage of the three additional inches while running and charging, allowing them to keep up with Knights and easily get a charge off by T2. On the charge they sport impressive four S8 attacks at I6, which grant additional hits on a roll of 6 to hit, making them very reliable vehicle killers. However, they can bring down close to anything by just drowning it in wounds. These guys make a very solid flanking force. Dragoons have their 5+ cover save and are big enough to grant a cover save to a knight. So it's an effective tactic to run dragoons on the flanks of a knight. The knight can keep their invulnerable save to the fore and get  the cover-saves from the side. The enemy has to choose whether to spend shots trying to hit the knight or whittle down it's flanking walkers. Either way a nasty assault is bearing down upon them!

To get those knights and dragoons into assault we need a unit that attracts early attention away from them. Sicarian infiltrators are able to infiltrate on top of their scout move. Their default load-out is somewhat mediocre, but includes a S2 Shred 5 shot pistol and S6 melee weapon that generates additional hits, much like the dragoons. Also they have 4/6++ FNP. These guys are able to drown a lot of enemies in wounds, making up for the lack of AP. Really, S6 is also very capable of damaging vehicles. Infiltrators also bring an aura, that reduces the effectiveness of shooting and melee of affected units within 6".



Now your ranged attacks come from your knights, onager and arc rifles and rad shots. Your AA is on your onager and also a stormshield pod likely will induce a jink at least. Now i wanted to add a thunderstrike gauntlet. I mean hurling MCs and vehicles - just to much fun to pass up. However,
IMHO, melta and stromshield pods are the two best upgrades on ki9nghts so I'm using them.

Is this competitive - well honestly there are probably better skitarii/knight lists without cc - yes I know I'm touting cc. Skitarii inherently are rather easy to shoot off the table. So shooting first is a bif bonus - you need to do early damage. However, what do you target with this list? Every unit is dangerous. Every unit kills vehicles and troops. Knights move 12" and these guys keep up with scout - dunestrider - infiltration - relentless.

The list I posted with skitarii and drop pods is really not the way to make friends. Skitarii were deliberately designed not to have transports to balance out all their special rules. It is almost cheating using pods. The new list is a fun list, I think. If you can get over your distaste for knights it is a list that is playable against most armies without your opponent packing up his models in frustration.

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Last edited by egorey on Wed May 27 2015, 19:20; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue May 26 2015, 04:29

Egorey,

Dare I ask you to put your mind to the WD exclusive formation, containing the Skitarii Battle Maniple (1 unit of almost everything), a Knight Oathsworn Detachment and a Cult Mech Battle Congregation Detachment (min 1 HQ, 2 Troops)?
The bonuses for it seem insane (all upgradesinc Relics for Skitarii and CM are free, no Gets Hot). Feel free to supplement any Skitarii Detachment of formation you need to get to 1850.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue May 26 2015, 04:51

I contemplated the formation and decided it was hard to fit in all those models in at 1850 and have a coherent list. Certainly worth a look though. I'm sure it is possible and will be fielded at tournaments. You can get around 200+ points of free upgrades. Why don't you post a list here?

I imagine you start with a min ranger squad, a min varguard squad, min infiltrators and min ruststalkers, a knight warden - then add in your HQ and two troops from cult mechanicus. A base onager is 90 points. I can easioly add 60-80 points on top. I can a lot of relics. I can take plasma  - no 'gets hot' on as many skitarii and cult mechanicus units that can have it with no danger of overheating.

But here is my problem. As durable as IKs are you should still protect them by playing a solid tactical game. So I want to add those units that allow me to advance them safely - in my case flanking dragoons. I need to use my skitarii troops to front my main force. And I need rad to be effective - a lot of rad shots. Rad is the cancer. Do the math. They deal exactly as much damage as your standard S4 AP5 guns against anything but T6 and T7, against which they are twice as good. They auto-wound even if the enemy's toughness is very high and they hit with BS buffs. Piling the saves on big wraith constructs, riptides and iron arm protected daemons is the forte of your varguard. Skitarii lists with knights are based on synergy. All the units need to support other units or the list collapses as it is not forgiving. I need each unit to have defined purpose and application. Can we do this with all those cult mechanicus units an extra skitarii units requirements? Show me how it works.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue May 26 2015, 21:01

Disclaimer 1: I have zero experience in fielding a Knight, and very little in facing one. I only know that their biggest weakness was no AA, but that has been fixed with the new codex.
Disclaimer 2: I have not yet been able to field my Skitarii - most of them are still on the sprue - but I am involved in an Escalation type league for which I'll slowly be expanding my Skitarii/CultMech army. Last weekend was a single HQ choice, next month we'll a Troop.

I'd max out the Ranger and Vanguard squad, both for ablative wounds and a third - free - Plasma Caliver. It also increases the effectiveness of the Omnispex. 220 points.

Icarus Onagers only; it's one of the most effective AA units in the game. Take two, maybe three if your local meta is skimmer/flyer heavy. Mine isn't, so: 180 points.

One unit of 3 Taser Lance Dragoons. No need for the Phosphor, we take those on the Kastellans. Dealing with AV12- vehicles effectively, but even AV14 in a pinch. They'll get to the backfield quickly, allowing the Knight, Kataphrons and Kastellans to get into range with their 24-36" range weaponry. 135 points.

Ruststalkers: basic gear, 4 attacks on the charge, wound T4 on 4's, T5 on 5's, and T6+ on 6. Any 6 is AP2. One of every 4 attacks is a 2+. 6.08 wounds against MEQ, before saves; 2.03 dead marines that will still hit back.
They'll be able to take care of any light infantry that isn't too large in number. The Fleshbane would tempt one to send them after an MC, but most of those have a better armour save than 5+, possibly even an invul. 3 Wounds before saves, and that's against only WS4. Anything with I5 or better will smash them to bits first. 160 points.

Infiltrators with taser goads and flechette blasters: they put out a whopping 11.67 wounds before saves against MEQ, so that's 3.89 dead Marines. That won't hit back!
Clearly, these would be of great help to run along with the Ruststalkers. Those would then improve to 2.70 dead MEQ that won't hit back.
Infiltrators not only improve the damage output of any unit they accompany, they also - if they lower the initiative from 4 to 3, specifically - increase its survivability. The Neurostatic Aura can basically increase another units range of viable targets. Ruststalkers can suddenly deal with tactical squads, larger light infantry blobs, or even the odd MC. 185 points.

Skitarii Battle Maniple 880 points.
It can deal with a lot of (heavy) infantry through weight of fire, and at the very least tarpit a fast CC unit or two. Light to medium vehicles get hit with Taser Lances T2 at the latest, if the Plasma hasn't gotten in range yet and took them out already. All of the above is without taking any Canticles, Doctrina or Relics in mind, as the variables would just be too large - and I haven't studied them well enough to find the broken combos yet.  Cool

Cult Mechanicus:

Tech-Priest Dominus: take the Eradication Ray, it's an awesome MEQ deleter (I've tried, trust me!). The 24" range isn't tremendous, but it meshes nicely with the next unit. 105 points.

Kataphron Destroyers with Plasma Culverin. Again, 24" range. Even if Get Hot was an issue, the Dominus can repair a Wound on a 2+, sacrificing firing his 12" macrostubber. A unit larger than 3 would be overkill in my mind, as we've got 6, nay 7, blast templates going in the direction of said Tactical Squad. Of course, Green Tide would also make for a nice target.
Stick these guys somewhere between your DZ and the middle, camp an objective if you can. They won't hit back hard when they get assaulted, but 9 S4 autohits from the 3 Cognis flamers should deter plenty of units from even trying. 165 points.

Depending on the amount of 2+ opponents in your meta, you might like to stick in a unit of Grav Kataphrons. Their 30" range allows them to a little bit further back, and Salvo 4/6 adds up to 7.5 dead TEQ that better pray for an invul save. Another 165 points.

The Kataphron Breachers confuse me. Their melee weapons (either an Arc Claw S+1 Haywire, or a Hydraulic Claw S+2 or a single S10 AP2) suggest they'd like to take out vehicles in CC... yet they come with a 36" S6 Heavy 2 Haywire gun, which they can replace with a 24" S8 AP1 that penetrates for D3 Hull Points.
They're too slow to reliably get too vehicles in CC, so I'd keep them back and give them those S8 Torsion Cannons. We've got plenty of S6 and S7 fire already, but nothing 8 or higher. 150 points.

Kastellans confuse me even more! Much like the Breachers, they don't know what they want to do. Powerfists and a 36" range gun. We've got plenty of mid-strength shots, and they're to slow for the powerfists to be of much use. I'll pass for now.

Battle Congregation 575 points.
Subtotal 1455, leaving just under 400 points for an Imperial Knight. I haven't a codex for those guys just yet, so I won't comment on types of Knights or their loadout.

18 S7 AP2 shots at 18"
7 S4 AP4 Precision shots at 30"; 14 Precision shots at 15"
18 S3 AP5 Cancer shots at 18"
6 S7 AP2 Blasts at 24"
1 S6 AP3 Blast at 24"; OR 1 S8 AP1 shot at 12"
Anti-Air:
2 S7 AP2
10 S6 AP4, Ignores Cover
4 S7 AP4 twinlinked Interceptor
...all at 48".

Again, all without taking Canticles, Relics or Doctrinas into account. The Knight can provide the army with means to take out any AV13-14 comfortably.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 27 2015, 03:52

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Banshees now get 15 inches of movement in any turn they're not assaulting, and now have an assault threat range of 21 inches.(15 inch assault, plus 6 inch movement).

They weren't going to assault first turn, even if they had a ride, and without one, they'll assault by turn 2 anyhow.

As for the vibro cannons, I'd really like you to do me a favor. Plug 2 vibro cannons and a guide/prescience farseer into any list you've got, and use it. Make sure you guide and prescience the batteries every turn as long as there are 3 guns left, and organise them with a couple guardians out in front of each gun battery as ablative wounds behind the aegis defense line. They're super difficult to hurt behind an aegis(T7 with 4+ cover/3+armor), and each battery puts out 3 S9 AP2 shots 90% of the time. Their role is to crack the hard nuts first(AV12+), then to provide additional support against light vehicles, elite infantry, and hordes with their pinning shots. When twin-linked, they're the most versatile of the Vaul's options.

I think, when you've actually used the vibro cannons while twin-linked, you'll change your mind. They're REALLY effective. It's pretty rare that you don't get three S9 AP2 hits, and when you do, you got 2 S8 AP3 hits instead.

While shadow weavers are good, I've had TONS of experience with both of them. I pretty much run artillery in every list I make using Eldar, and I've never seen shadow weavers outperform twin-linked vibro cannons. They're just not as reliable in what kind of targets they'll damage, and when using the multiple barrage rules, you can get screwed if your initial blast scatters too far.

I like it. But I worry that the expense to make them effective could exceed the value of what they will ever eventually kill. thats the trouble with a lot of super cool combos. Im not saying dont use them. I'm just wondering aloud what that same amount of points might get me.

I do agree that the efficacy of those is underrated, but the cost of doing what you suggest is what... possible closing on 400 points? couple Farseers and a battery? One Farseer might not guarantee you the powers you need.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 27 2015, 04:19

Unorthodoxy wrote:

I do agree that the efficacy of those is underrated, but the cost of doing what you suggest is what... possible closing on 400 points?  couple Farseers and a battery?  One Farseer might not guarantee you the powers you need.

Actually, both farseers automatically get the 4 powers you need. That's the beauty of the plan. You're taking 2 primaris powers with each farseer, so you're guaranteed to get them. Guide and Prescience. Done.


But on a different note, I'm just kicking around an idea for what I would consider a fun list to try:

1 Craftworld Warhost (Made up of: 1 Windrider Host, 1 Outcast, 2 Seer Councils)

HQs:
Farseer w/ Jetbike 115 (WH)
4 Warlocks w/Jetbikes & Singing Spears 220 (WH)

Eldrad 195 (Seer Council 1)
Farseer w/Singing Spear & Spirit Stones of Anath'Lan 120 (Seer Council 1)
7 Warlocks w/Singing spears 280 (Seer Council 1)

2x Farseer w/Singing Spear 210 (Seer Council 2)
7 Warlocks w/Singins spears 280 (Seer Council 2)

Troops:
3x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Warlock & Singing Spear 318
1x 5 Rangers

Fast Attack:
1x Vyper w/ Dual Cannons 50

Total: 1848

24 Singing Spears, up to 35 psychic powers(including primaris), 37 warp charge. Go for gate in both the councils, while the non-council farseer joins the non-council conclave and goes straight for runes of fate.

The idea is to get both councils gate of infinity, then teleport around banging out as many nova powers and eldritch storms as you can afford. Both the footdar councils benefit from the guaranteed 6-9 inch run move every turn, while the rest of the units in the army are bikes/skimmers and don't need it.

It might not be super-competitive, but if played right, it'd be way more competitive than it appears at first glance.[/quote]

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 27 2015, 20:02

I checked out your new eldar list here J ...

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.ca/

It is an interesting list. The other day I watched a guy field three aspect shrines with 12 units of dark reapers. OMG. They obliterated ground targets. The rest of the list was standard windrider/jetseer config to get ObSec. So with help ftpm BetrayTheWorld:

CAD: 479
farseer, skyrunner
2x 3 windrider bikes, shuriken cannons
2x 3 windrider bikes

4x ASPECT SHRINE: 1470
10x 3 dark reapers, 2 starshot missiles, exarch, eml
2x 5 warp spiders, exarch

TOTAL: 1849

Now you will be facing 30 dark reapers and 10 warp spiders! This your classic STFU list (says Betray). Whatever the reapers cannot handle the spiders can. The bikes are just to claim objectives and really can start in reserve if need be. Whether you star the spiders on the board or DS them will depend on what you are facing. Those reapers reroll when firing at flyers, skimmers and FMCs so they aren'y bad and you cannot jink. The list kills flyers, FMCs, MCs and infantry rather easily. You have sixteen MSU units on the table and it absolutely redundant.  

Now about the spiders. If the spiders guns are still essentially the same stats as before but with the initiative part of the rule changed 10 spiders will kill most MCs with ease. That would is 20 shots, wounding on 2+ against I4, AP1 on a to wound of 6, which equals ~5 wounds on 3+ armour save MCs. Now with the formation we give them +1 BS and that is 6 wounds on a wraithknight. This does not take into account what powers the farseer might cast either. Also those shuriken cannons will also hurt MCs - albeit not as efficiently.

Now the list I watched had no spiders - instead it fielded 36 reapers. This has six less but also it has ten spiders missing in the original. The orginal list I saw went against drop pod skitarii and it was an hilarious war of attrition. A reaper squad would die and then a skitarii would die and then a ... last unit standing.

So there are many ways 'to skin the cat' as they say when playing the new eldar. I hosnestly do not know the best build anymore. As a codex they are way to forgiving and every unit is playable, TBH.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 27 2015, 21:19

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:

I do agree that the efficacy of those is underrated, but the cost of doing what you suggest is what... possible closing on 400 points?  couple Farseers and a battery?  One Farseer might not guarantee you the powers you need.

Actually, both farseers automatically get the 4 powers you need. That's the beauty of the plan. You're taking 2 primaris powers with each farseer, so you're guaranteed to get them. Guide and Prescience. Done.


But on a different note, I'm just kicking around an idea for what I would consider a fun list to try:

1 Craftworld Warhost (Made up of: 1 Windrider Host, 1 Outcast, 2 Seer Councils)

HQs:
Farseer w/ Jetbike 115 (WH)
4 Warlocks w/Jetbikes & Singing Spears 220 (WH)

Eldrad 195 (Seer Council 1)
Farseer w/Singing Spear & Spirit Stones of Anath'Lan 120 (Seer Council 1)
7 Warlocks w/Singing spears 280 (Seer Council 1)

2x Farseer w/Singing Spear 210 (Seer Council 2)
7 Warlocks w/Singins spears 280 (Seer Council 2)

Troops:
3x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Warlock & Singing Spear 318
1x 5 Rangers

Fast Attack:
1x Vyper w/ Dual Cannons 50

Total: 1848

24 Singing Spears, up to 35 psychic powers(including primaris), 37 warp charge. Go for gate in both the councils, while the non-council farseer joins the non-council conclave and goes straight for runes of fate.

The idea is to get both councils gate of infinity, then teleport around banging out as many nova powers and eldritch storms as you can afford. Both the footdar councils benefit from the guaranteed 6-9 inch run move every turn, while the rest of the units in the army are bikes/skimmers and don't need it.

It might not be super-competitive, but if played right, it'd be way more competitive than it appears at first glance.
[/quote]

I think my point was that you have to invest in two to get that which strikes me as expensive. Not totally lacking in virtue, just spensive.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed May 27 2015, 21:21

35 powers? No. Seer Councils only get up to 3 per council... and that only if you start with 7 of them.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 28 2015, 02:00

Unorthodoxy wrote:
35 powers?  No.  Seer Councils only get up to 3 per council...  and that only if you start with 7 of them.

They actually get 4 powers(if we're talking about the warlocks), so long as they're all taken from 1 discipline. They get psychic focus. So, if they took 3 powers from runes of battle, they'd also get the runes of battle primaris. That makes 4.

Then, if every single farseer and eldrad each take all of their powers from a single discipline, they each get 4/5 powers, respectively. (4 for farseers, 5 for Eldrad)

So technically "each council" could include up to 13 powers if it included 7 warlocks(4), Eldrad(5), and a Farseer(4). But I tallied up the total powers in the army, which included powers held by warlock-led units. Actually, counting again, I originally forgot the primaris powers that the warlocks from the windrider units would get, so it's actually 38 powers, not 35.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

I think my point was that you have to invest in two to get that which strikes me as expensive.  Not totally lacking in virtue, just spensive.

Meh, you have to pay for an HQ to get both the CAD and the Host anyway, so you're not really paying anything extra to stick the extra farseer in with the artillery.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 28 2015, 21:41

will it be fun to roll that many powers to get the game started? people dislike that about Chaos Daemons also.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu May 28 2015, 22:27

Unorthodoxy wrote:
will it be fun to roll that many powers to get the game started?  people dislike that about Chaos Daemons also.

Well, it WILL be a lot of pre-game rolls to make. But if I were actually going to run this list, I'd come prepared with a pre-printed checklist of powers so that I could just check them as I roll them, and have each model marked with a numbered sticker indicating which one they were to streamline the process, as a courtesy to my opponent.

It would likely take 5 minutes or less for me to do my 38 psychic rolls and warlord trait. That's roughly 8 seconds per roll. If people get frustrated over 5 minutes of preparation on a 3 hour game, that sounds to me like their problem rather than mine. I wouldn't want to play with people like that.

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