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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Oct 26 2014, 21:22

@Count de Money wrote:

1648 pts

I will be facing SW if that makes any difference.

Are you guys playing 1650 points?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Oct 26 2014, 21:45

Yep. We always play at 1650.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Mon Oct 27 2014, 07:58

1650 is interesting. Dont often see it.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Mon Oct 27 2014, 22:41

What do you think of something like this Count:

2 Grotesquerie formations, 1 CAD.

1x Haemonculus w/WWP, Liquifier gun, The parasite's kiss
3 Haemonculus w/WWP, Liquifier gun
4x 3 Grotesques w/Aberration, Agoniser
2x 5 Kabalite Warriors w/Blaster in raiders w/Dark Lance
3x Ravagers w/3 dark lances

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Oct 28 2014, 03:08

Looks good Betray - maybe break it up so it is understandable

Primary CAD
1x Haemonculus w/WWP, Liquifier gun, The parasite's kiss
2x 5 Kabalite Warriors w/Blaster in raiders w/Dark Lance
3x Ravagers w/3 dark lances

Grotesquerie Detachment
Haemonculus w/WWP, Liquifier gun
2x 3 Grotesques w/Aberration, Agoniser

Grotesquerie Detachment
Haemonculus w/WWP, Liquifier gun
2x 3 Grotesques w/Aberration, Agoniser

Now two grot squads will have to footslog - nothing can be done about that ... however you could substitute one of the grotesquries and then everything could DS

Dark Artisan Detachment

Haemonculus w/WWP, Liquifier gun
Talos, Haywire, Ichor
Cronos

Talos and Cronos can drop in and the two grot squads too this way. And it is still very coven oriented.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Oct 28 2014, 05:28

Actually, with your list, only 1 grot will have to footslog. 3 can WWP in, along with your dark artisan formation.

I didn't check your points though. Is that list 1650 Duck?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Oct 28 2014, 12:30

Actaully the dark artisan is replacing one of the grotesquerie detachents so nothing footslogs. It is around the same points as yours is depending on upgrades.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Oct 28 2014, 18:40

I like it Betray, thanks. I'll try it in my next game. As an exercise, I made the following changes. If I am following you correctly, this should be right.

Grotesquerie
haemonculus, liquifier, wwp
2x 5 Grotesques, abberation, agoniser

Dark Artisans
Haemonculus liquifier, wwp
Talos, tl hwb, Ichor
Cronos, spirit vortex

Primary CAD
haemonculus, liquifier, wwp
2x5 warriors w blaster, raider w racks and dl
2x ravagers, 3 dl


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Oct 28 2014, 19:00

Let us know how you do!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Oct 28 2014, 19:33

Dont do it, it's a trap.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed Oct 29 2014, 12:49

S0 ... champions of fenris allows SW to take eight elite slots and no troops. Well, this got the duck thinking big. A list with maybe NINE models total. Not IKs but still. So for around 1750 - 1850 we get an all dread list ... and for those unfamiliar:

A helfrost is AP1 Str 8 or a blast that is AP3 Str 6 - better than plasma - dunno.
They both force a toughness test after wounding, and remove the target model as a casualty if it's failed.

HQ – Bjorn the Fellhanded w/ Helfrost Cannon

Elites - 2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Fenrisian Axe and Blizzard Shield, Extra Armor, Drop Pod

Elites – 2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Greater Wolf Claw, Drop Pod

Elites – Murderfang, Drop Pod

Elites – 3x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Greater Wolf Claw. Extra Armour 

Sp we start four dreads on the table and look to take out major threats. We drop three dreads onto the opponent turn one. Then we drop another dread and the murderfang. We start moving forward aggressively early. In maelstrom missions your opponent will have to move forward as well.

Can a list like this work? Who knows - but would it not be fun to field?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed Oct 29 2014, 13:11

@egorey wrote:
S0 ... champions of fenris allows SW to take eight elite slots and no troops. Well, this got the duck thinking big. A list with maybe NINE models total. Not IKs but still. So for around 1750 - 1850 we get an all dread list ... and for those unfamiliar:

A helfrost is AP1 Str 8 or a blast that is AP3 Str 6 - better than plasma - dunno.
They both force a toughness test after wounding, and remove the target model as a casualty if it's failed.

HQ – Bjorn the Fellhanded w/ Helfrost Cannon

Elites - 2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Fenrisian Axe and Blizzard Shield, Extra Armor, Drop Pod

Elites – 2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Greater Wolf Claw, Drop Pod

Elites – Murderfang, Drop Pod

Elites – 3x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Greater Wolf Claw. Extra Armour 

Sp we start four dreads on the table and look to take out major threats. We drop three dreads onto the opponent turn one. Then we drop another dread and the murderfang. We start moving forward aggressively early. In maelstrom missions your opponent will have to move forward as well.

Can a list like this work? Who knows - but would it not be fun to field?

I worked out a list with the BA codex that is mainly dreads, I'm curious to see what they do with the new one and if they take that particular style out - I'd love to have that kind of collection though!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed Oct 29 2014, 16:54

Would have been fun/interesting to play my old HWG wych spam list against it. Unlike traditional vehicles, dreads can overwatch, so my wyches had more difficulty against them. It would've been cool to see how they'd have done against a list like this. Not sure who'd have won.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed Oct 29 2014, 18:19

Wow. Didnt know about that crazy ability. EIGHT elites? Wow. Well i think dreadnoughts are not my favorite thing in 40k aesthetically. But the murderfang definitely increases my enthusiasm for them. I can imagine that the game would be fun. All the downsides are obvious. But I think fun, yes.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 12:40

Lets look at Nids - which we used to think a pretty good match up for DE and see if it still is.


Primary CAD

Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs

Malanthrope

2x 3 DS Rippers - Deepstrike

Dimachaeron
Harpy - TL-HVC
Hive Crone

Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc

Allied Detachment

Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs

3 Rippers

1849

So five FMCs and five TMCs - this is the new Nidzilla.

Nid lists are evolving and there are now pretty much must have units. Gone are Tervigons, Warriors (unless taking living artillery) and incoming is FMC heavy lists of doom. These lists are generally backed up by Mawlocs - still frighteningly efficient and MSU troops in rippers. WE need two units of DS rippers in maelstrom and for linebreaker of course. Lets look at the two newest inclusions we are seeing in Nid lists:


Why is the a Dimachaeron in all the new competitive Nid lists?

MC, WS8, BS3, S6, T6, W6, I6, A5, Ld10, and a 3+ save. He can leap  (pass over models ) in assault phase for  a +1S to his hammer of wrath attacks, and the strikedown special rule. He has are the Instinctive Behavior of Feed and Rampage. Its weapons are Sickle Claws, Grasping Talons, Thorax Spine-maw, and Adrenal glands. So, it has furious charge and fleet, as well as all the rules a Monstrous Creature come with, like move through cover. The Dimachaeron has 5 attacks base, plus one for the second close combat weapon, plus D3 attacks for Rampage, Hammer of Wrath attacks, potentially another attack at initiative one, plus one more for the charge, and finally with feed, the Dimachaeron can get another one on the charge. This Monster has the potential of 13 attacks on a charge. It can can nget FNP +4 and also an ID weapon and can be Str 7.

Why a Malanthrope

This could be the best support unit in the game today - and this means all armies not just Nids. It provides synapse and preferred enemy to units and is formidable in assault for very litle points. They also have shrouded like a venomthrope. They have a high enough strength to take out vehicles and infantry and do have poison. You can run them solo without too many worries.

So you are going to tell me that poison is the great equalizer but --- FMCs are hard to deal with. Mawlocs are not on the table to hit with poison - they will get you first. Sure - you can kill the troops and doubtless the Nid player will kill our troops. Then who wins the war with the survivors. Nids are again coming into theor own with the inclusion of the two new TMCs and the ability to ally with themselves for the extra Flyrant. Their list are becoming quite efficient and those two new inclusions are only 300 points or so and their troops are dirt cheap.

No one doubts that DE can take down a TMC or FMC - but can your list handle TEN. This is the problem - the ability to spam these monsters puts immediate pressure on our troops and boats. What is the answer? Daemon FMC lists also create problems for DE - we can look at those too at a later date. But for now - we need answers for this.

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Last edited by egorey on Fri Oct 31 2014, 03:10; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:08

I think this list would probably give that one a run for it's money. Nothing specifically anti-air. Just weight of fire.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t10595-1850-all-my-transports-list

And that's with an all-comers list. If I was tailoring, I'd probably swap out all the raiders for more dual cannon venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:51

Possibly Betray. The isssue is is that you have 30 FMC wounds with good saves and 30 TMC wiunds  (with shrouding posiibly). Not an easy task by any means.

Of course you will start with 144 poison shots- wow. However, the flyers should be able to take out 4-5 boats a turn and the Mawlocs will be a problem on arrival. Also the list has shrouded jink and you will be snap shoting at five targets. So ... not a foiregone conclusion by any means but I think nids might have the edge.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 18:09

Weeeeellllll, I'd say 4-5 boats a turn destroyed by just the flyers might be wishful thinking. There's only 5 of em.

I wouldn't even bother shooting at the flyers to begin with. I'd start out shooting at everything on the table. I might be incorrect here, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that if a game turn ends and you don't have a unit on the table that is not a swooping MC or zooming flyer, you lose, right? It's the same as being tabled?

So, depending on who goes first, the list could table the nids by killing everything that ISN'T flying. And if the nids went second, it would at least force the nids to land their flyers to avoid losing, which makes them much easier targets for the remaining poison attacks.

Between all the shots the DE list has, even if you had 2+ saves on EVERYTHING, they'd start out doing about 20 unsaved wounds per turn(counting darklight shots).

But you don't have 2+ on everything, so they'd do significantly more wounds than that per turn. With so few models in your list, weight of fire would quickly effect how much damage you could put back out. And all of this discussion is completely ignoring the other potential 48 splinter shots per turn from the warriors.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 18:13

I think Monster based lists of ANY kind would suffer badly at the hands of that venom onslaught.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 18:24

Oh, just to point this out....

@Unorthodoxy wrote:
Dont do it, it's a trap.

This was the 1000th post in this thread, if that means anything to anyone. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 18:44

It means something. It means somethign to ME.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 20:55

So - yes and no. If you start first my flyers are vulenerable - they are not swooping. They are easier to hit. They will have a shrouded cloud ifn you take out the malanthrope first though. But your oppo9nent knows that too. So expect everything far back and as much as possible behind cover so they get shrouding and cover. The rippers should find a spot out of LoS as well. I expect the Nids would take some casualties.

If the Nids go first they will probably - on turn one take ou three venoms. So they reduce the shooting by 30% - an okay result. Now if they survive your retaliation they will thwen on turn two have mawlocs and flyers all doing damage - that is another 4 -5 transports down. So the game is no given.

I will absolutelyb agree that your list is as good as it gets against Nids though. You do have a good chance and the missions might favour you as well.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:04

Missions are always an X factor for sure.

I feel like this battle needs to be played out on VASSAL now.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:16

@egorey wrote:
So they reduce the shooting by 30% - an okay result.

It would actually be quite a bit less than this, as 3 venoms don't represent 30% of the shooting of: 12 venoms, 6 raiders w/dlances, 30 Kabalites w/6 blasters, and 2 Archons w/Blasters.

I'd say my list would be heavily advantaged, but sure, I wouldn't consider it a given. Can always be outmaneuvered or suffer bad rolls vs. good rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:28

And do not forget the psychic buffs that the Nids will also get --- but yes - would be interesting. Your list is tailored to fight it. I doubt the kabalites will do anything turn one if you go first BTW.

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